I don't really get the new GCSE grading....

[AuntieMatters]

Everyone keeps saying that 7 is an A and 8 an A star and 9 A double star?

But then there is this other narrative sometimes, in posts on here and conversations elsewhere, that treats anything less than a 7 like it would be a really poor grade....

Certainly for my son's chosen subjects at 6th form he needs " at least a 7" and he and his teachers feel he should aim for 9s across the board

I don't mind him having high aspirations but I just feel like there's mixed messaging about what the grades really mean?

This strikes a chord with me. On my (state educated)DC's GCSE results day my sister in law, whose children attend a well known boarding school, called me to commiserate and told me not to worry, we can't all be academic and that my DC has lots of other good qualities that will help them make their way in the world. Those "terrible" results? Mainly 8s with a couple at 9 and 7. Not bad enough to prevent my DC doing their preferred A levels and now being on track for a First at a very well regarded University anyway!

We tried getting rid of GCSE exams and doing school-based assessment during Covid and it was shit and totally unreliable.

A lot of people on here live in London with the best state schools, eg grammars or pay for private schools. If you recognise that you will see why 6 is considered "scraping a pass". If you remember grammar's take the top 2-5% of every area anything less than a 6 would likely reflect badly on the teaching and the school. The same goes for selective private schools where people are expecting top grades and the best teaching for their £. If your child wants to continue and go into medicine, for example, they would be expected to be getting 7-9 at GCSE and A's for A'Levels. Which is a good thing; we don't want to be lowering standards for the most important jobs where the person has lives in their hands.

This is true. The people who hang out on the education boards tend to be more invested than many parents.

However these parents should maybe be intelligent enough to realise that children aiming for all 7-9s or aiming for Medicine are at the top end academically. They should have the emotional intelligence/empathy to not disparage the efforts of children who can 'only' achieve grades 4-6, or lower than that.

There is a vast difference between saying 'my child got 6s, they didn't work and could have done so much better' and saying 'grade 6 is hardly worth having', or saying a 4 is not seen as a valuable grade, just a very low basic pass when for many a grade 4 opens doors that would otherwise be closed.

All schools have their own requirements
my daughter is at a Grammar school
and to stay on a 6th form they say you need 44 points in your top 8 subjects

but then when you look at each subject requirement also
most of them require a 6 in either that subject/related subject to be able to do it at Alevel

Other local non grammar schools require 5s in most subjects
but maths, English and science still need a 6 and maths a 7

Of course, it's a form of boasting when parents do that I suspect. I think the schools often foster these attitudes to encourage parents to play an active role and I suspect that goes beyond the school gates. I don't live in London but the people I know who do have vastly different expectations from their children.

My DD has dyslexia, so her GCSE English, most likely to be a 5, but could be 4 or 6, is going to be a lot harder won than some of her friends 8s or 9s in the same subject.

It should be obvious since less than half of 16yos nationally get 5s or above in English and Maths that 7-9s aren't the norm really. Even back in the 2000s everyone complained about how easy GCSEs were these days, and everyone got As like sweeties. Its rather insulting to the hard work they do.

I personally hate it as so many children are just not mature enough to understand at 14-16 just how significant their GCSE grades will be and that if they mess them up (in my DS’s case just get 6s) it is potentially life-limiting.

I personally hate it that many children are told that getting high GCSE results is the be all and end all and if they don't get the highest of high results, their life will be over. So much pressure on young people.

GCSEs are not the be all and end all. I said to my children that getting the best GCSE results they are able to will offer them up more opportunities, and may make their paths easier, but if they are determined enough, there are always different routes to get to where they want to.

I agree. It's staggering some people think they need to place that level of pressure on children

I know so many people who have had phenomenal success despite really quite terrible GCSE results including people who got barely any GCSE at all

Plus even in a really academic job people need skills other than just academics in order to succeed (including a good slug of good luck )

The thing I hate about GCSEs is that they get chosen so early. I chose mine at 13 (I am young in the year) and I chose my A levels at 15. Looking back, I would have chosen differently for both.

I remember a teacher friend of my Mum’s saying that she was really cross when A was introduced for GCSE because it just stressed out the brightest kids. My year was the first to get As at GCSE and there wasn’t much pressure to get them because my school didn’t have a sense of what to do to get them (and, if I’m honest, didn’t have as much ambition as they should for the brightest kids).

The thing I hate about GCSEs is that they get chosen so early. I chose mine at 13 (I am young in the year) and I chose my A levels at 15. Looking back, I would have chosen differently for both.
I agree with this. I've noticed that since the latest curriculum changes there is a trend for some schools to start GCSEs in Year 9, meaning they have to be chosen in year 8. I really disapprove of that. I think the curriculum narrows too soon in this country as it is and pushing decisions back to the point where a significant number of pupils are still only 12 is a very bad thing in my opinion. I wouldn't send a child to a school that chooses options in year 8 unless I really had no choice in the matter. If it had been a viable option for us I would have preferred my DC to do the IB rather than A levels, to keep more subjects for longer.

Let me tell you a secret. More than one secret in fact.
The old grades don't count: They haven't counted since 2017. Just concentrate on the new grades. Grade 4 is an acceptable pass. Grade 5 is a decent pass.
Only something like 10% or less of kids will get grade 7-9. To get 10 grade 9s is unrealistic unless your child is a genius or has totally cracked revision. Normal kids don't get umpteen grade 9s.
Media puts a lot of stress on high grades. Every year television and papers show all these kids jumping up and down with umpteen grade 9s. Those kids are not 'normal'. Mumsnetters love to boast about their kids exceptional grades. Most kids are 'normal' they get a mixture of grades. They often fail a subject they didn't enjoy/ weren't very good at. That's normal.
Schools: They love to boast about their success rates. What better way to do this than to put pressure on little Johnny's mum and tell her he needs 9x grade 9s at gcse. Johnny's mum freaks out. Johnny is pressurised to work hard and get the grades. Johnny gets stressed. Private tutors get involved. Johnny feels a failure - but he is normal. School post record pass rates and high grades in August. Well done school.
I know parents in year 9 who are buying GCSE revision guides. Silly cows. The kids haven't even chosen their options yet. Stupid bloody neurotic parents. They have also employed private tutors. I'm predicting the kids will crash and burn further down the line.
A levels: Look around at different schools and colleges. Grade 7 is often required. In reality, schools will usually 'make an exception' and accept a 6. It's remarkable how often they 'make an exception'. Your son doesn't have to continue his A levels at his present school. He can go elsewhere for 6th form.
The final secret: Once you start A levels no-one cares what GCSE grades you got. Once you get to Uni no-one cares about your A levels. Once you do your master's degree no-one cares what you got for your first degree. Once you enter the workplace no-one cares that you once got a grade 9 in GCSE Art. You are judged on your day to day performance.

This absolutely nails it. Very few people who post on these boards seem to have children who attend 'average' comprehensive schools. By average I mean statistically average on indicators such as attainment and progress. They seem to have little appreciation of how things are outside of a private/grammar/very high attaining comprehensive bubble. Some of the comments about the achievements of average and lower attaining young people are dismissive and really lack empathy. Nationally a 7 is not an 'average' grade.

A 4 can reflect a significant amount of work on the part of the young person and open up progression pathways and employment opportunities. Despite effort, some young people wont achieve a 4 in maths and english in Year 11. There are pathways for them to move forward. Maybe they dont attend your child's school, but they are part of my DD's cohort.

The only ones ours start early in y9 are the science ones that everyone would be taking anyway.
It is hard choosing them for in y9 if you’re 13, but the schools have to plan and get timetables sorted and i don’t think it’s easy, with teachers leaving, recruitment, some students needing to choose backup options etc.

Are there many schools where the option subjects (3 or 4 of them) have to be chosen in y8? That would be really tough.

A levels we’ve found to be a lot more flexible at the bigger sixth form colleges - they have huge flexibility and ours didn’t have to finalise their choices till after gcse results, which is as late as possible really.

I do agree that going down to 3, maybe 4 subjects at the start of y12 is very narrow very quick.

Exactly this! My DCs’ comp wanted a 7 for A-Level maths and I think much the same for science. They did however let DC2 to maths and science with 6s and in their particular case, it turned out to be a good decision because they got BBB, although as with the GCSEs it was lower than expected. (After finishing A-Levels DC2 got diagnosed with dyslexia and ADHD and so gets extra timein
exams and is likely to get a 1st at uni).

"The final secret: Once you start A levels no-one cares what GCSE grades you got. Once you get to Uni no-one cares about your A levels. Once you do your master's degree no-one cares what you got for your first degree. Once you enter the workplace no-one cares that you once got a grade 9 in GCSE Art. You are judged on your day to day performance."

Universities look at GCSE grades and see how you did amongst your cohort. It is why some of the failing grammars get a far higher % of kids into Oxbridge than some leading private schools, despite lower grades.

It is worth remembering that GCSEs are ‘universal’ exams and are thus trying to do a large number of different things simultaneously (while therefore not doing some / any of them perfectly).

They are

• A record of subjects studied, which can be useful for those moving on to Level 1 / 2 and more vocational routes post 16 (Levels 1-3)
• A single indicator of adequate numeracy and literacy to function within the workforce or as a platform for further study in other areas (Levels 4/5 in Maths and English. They are poor at this, despite the focus on it - the match between 4/5 at English / Maths and functional daily literacy and numeracy for work is particularly poor)
• A measure of suitability for A level study and a predictor of likely grades in these A levels
• A way of distinguishing between many similar candidates, that can be done quickly and easily by computer algorithm.

For each student, the relevance of each purpose of GCSE exams is different. If your child is aiming for STEM A levels in a selective institution, then 7+ is where you are looking. If your child is deciding between A levels or vocational study, then 4/5/6 is where you are looking. If ‘collecting tickets for future work not reliant on further academic study’ is your aim, then 4+ in Maths & English - with anything else a bonus - is going to be your focus. For children who have struggled throughout school, a mix of 1s and 2s will represent their attainment and be an accurate basis on which to discuss next steps.

I thought that Ofsted were getting quite funny about schools starting GCSEs in year 9. But I can believe that there are schools that do it.

I had to choose my GCSEs in March / April of what is now year 9 - but I was 13 for nearly all of year 9 because I am young in the year group. It seems a pity that the last time I studied art (say) was when I was 13, for all that art was taught in a particularly uninspiring way at my school.

I've seen quite a few posts on here where people have said their DC are choosing options in year 8 and then either taking 3 years over the course or sitting some in year 10 and others in year 11. Either way I think that's wrong and if Ofsted are clamping down on it then that's a good thing in my opinion.

It would be nice if there was enough flex in the school day and curriculum that art, music, design technology etc could still be studied in Yr10/11 in a more casual way, not as an exam subject in the same way PE is.

In many schools, music at least is a frequent extracurricular, with groups at lunchtime or after school and peri teachers offering instrumental tuition to all (paid for).

Art and DT could be part of the club offering if there was demand? Equally, where I have lived there are high-quality non-school art session providers offering short or long term after school and weekend classes?

Because it was done in an emergency by people not trained to do it. The system works fine in the UK for IB students and those doing Access courses… because they are trained and the mode of assessment is established and well-supported. It works everywhere else in the world. Covid was an anomaly.

I've been reading recently that some American universities are having to put on remedial maths courses for students who can't do the basics, while those same students had a 4.0 GPA.

Externally marked exams is the fairest method of assessment. Obviously some subjects have to have coursework but it needs to be strictly moderated and you'd be surprised at how much cheating goes on,

I believe that the UK is one of very few countries that test children at 16.

That said, I remember finding it such a relief to give up science and did far better in my A levels which were all subjects I loved than in my GCSEs.

My son is at a Grammar School so they do target 7‘s and above ideally but when you know you have selected your students then you can aspire to this. That said to secure a 6th form place you need to achieve 52 points from your top 8 GCSE‘s as an internal candidate and slightly higher for external. Those wanting to do Maths need a 7 FM 8 Chemistry 8 plus a 7 in maths and Physics and Biology 7‘s. If you wish to do subjects such as Politics or Economics they require 6 in Engl Due to be essay based A levels. Generally regardless of school it is not recommended that you select A levels in subjects you achieve lower than a 6 as it is a step up and can be hard going