To take A level English or not?

[NotDonna]

DD has just received her gcse results and done much better than expected obtaining 9’s in History, Eng Lit & Eng Lang. This was not expected but she does have amazing English teachers. They were VERY shocked that she’s not taking English to A level and their surprise has given DD a bit of a wobble over her choices.
She is moving schools and had chosen sociology, politics, psychology and business. They must take 4 to AS then choose one to drop. She’s NO clue what she will do in the future. Should she reconsider and swap one out for English? They’re all new subjects but she’s looking forward to that aspect. She’s not great at sciences (6;6;7). I don’t think she needs English for any uni course other than English does she? Maybe law at some unis. Huge thanks!

I do think it’s more challenging. I also used to teach both A Level Lit and Lang courses. Currently I teach English at a university and our students who have got As in Lit tend to be slightly more academically successful with us than the ones who come with high grades in Lang.

We’ll have to agree to disagree.

ETA I still think Lang is a challenging subject too, I just think Lit edges it and it’s also more highly respected by some unis. Not mine.

Not true! Language is a hybrid of different things but tends to be taught in a more bite-sized way and historically is offered to weaker students. Lit is much more challenging. OP there is a temptation to choose new subjects for novelty. However, if she doesn’t live English she may struggle- a 9 doesn’t guarantee you’ll be great at A level. Psychology/Siciology/Business are often perceived as more accessible/less academic than History/English etc - with some justification.

I completely agree. In my experience, people who struggle more with English at GCSE do better with Lang because it's less subjective and more social sciency.

Definitely agree re: the social sciences links. So while I love English Lit (and personally think it’s a little more challenging), if OP’s daughter is doing Sociology and isn’t a big reader in her spare time then English Lang would actually be the perfect fit for her.

On the other hand there’s nothing wrong with her existing choices OP, so it’s a personal decision for your daughter.

I haven't taught lang - what I have taught is sociology and lit.

Ah OK. I do question how well you taught the analytical skills involved in English lit if you saw it as an exercise in learning quotations. I’m guessing your degree isn’t in English.

Ermm, yeah it is!!! RG uni and everything! Go me.

I said the students can see it that way. And indeed I patrolled corridors spouting Hardy at school. Yes, of course you have to apply those quotations, strip them down and analyse them - the theoretical stuff in Eng Lit is definitley quite light touch at A level. The content is lighter. English Lit colleagues get through their course with loads of time to spare. Sociology A level has so much content it's beyond ridiculous . It's like teaching throughout a panic attack to get it all done. So maybe that's the biggest difference, in fact. It could definitley do with being stripped back.

I taught it very well, thank you!

Nowhere offers language around here. One of DDs friends has chosen English language and really struggled to find somewhere that offered it. She has but in the next big town.
I’m surprised they don’t need history A level to take history at every university!

Language A level is not all that widely offered.

I think business is a total waste of time.

You learn business in a business, and different businesses have different skill requirements.

If she like English and reads for pleasure, she should definitely take it. It is considered far more academic by both unis and employers.

Language is absolutely NOT "offered to weaker students" in any school I've worked in.

It's incredibly difficult to do well in because it is the science of language.

For what it's worth, OP, I think your daughter should study the subjects she's excited by and let the academic snobbery pass her by.

Thank you @MrsHamlet we’ll have a chat when she returns from Reading to see if she’s having a change of heart. I think it may be sensible to scrutinise the ‘blocks’ and ensure she has perhaps both History and English Lit in the business block so she can switch if it’s not to her liking. Hope your class all did well in their GCSEs. 🤞🏼

@NotDonna what @BarbaraVineFan says is absolutely correct. Your DD got good GCSE grades and yet is choosing mainly non-academic subjects. English and History are better regarded (harder) than Sociology and Business and will open the door to more offers from good unis. She can still do a Business degree with those subjects.

Just to also weigh in on business. There are essentially two business A levels. One is more vocational (can be spotted by modular exams and coursework) and one is a 'proper' (for want of a better word!) A level. The latter is just as challenging as any other A level. Lots of essays. DS1 hated it FWIW. But he is hard to please!

To the PP who said this is all academic snobbery, it really isn’t. There are way more graduates than there are graduate jobs, and the gap is widening every year as AI takes up more of the slack. Those with the weakest cvs are the ones who will miss out. It’s a massive problem.

AI is much more objective at blind recruitment mind.

wow there is some subject snobbery here!

Just to be clear, I am not one of those throwing shade on sociology or indeed any of the A levels OP's DD has picked. I just wanted her to be sure she is keen on them, given that they are subjects not studied before (IME, and not saying this is your DD @NotDonna, students sometimes pick a new subject as a way to avoid all the things they hate – and it becomes just another subject they hate as perhaps A levels are not for them). And also for her to be aware that Eng lit or history will keep open some extra doors. Subject-specific doors tho rather than doors to good unis as some here are implying. But these may be doors she does not want to go through. No worries if so.

Honestly I don’t think anyone ever will look at a business A level and say "oooh we'd have offered you a place on our criminolgy degree/job on our marketing team if that had been Eng lit A level." And I am a champion of Eng lit (My dd took it for her degree).

@Piggywaspushed you have my support – from your posts you are clearly someone who knows what they are talking about!

Thanks clary - I agree with all you say!

re your first sentence. Naturally! It's MN HE!

Ooh I meant to add, it's true that sone unis do not need history for a history degree - I researched this recently and the list includes the likes of Leeds, for example. Some unis do ask for it tho.

MN hates sociology. But it does tend to have a very narrow view of what is “acceptable” re subjects, grades, and which universities people should chose. Very weird.

OP your DD should do the subjects that she is interested in. Then she is much more likely to do well. Unless she wants to do an english or history degree.

I don’t think it’s incredibly hard to do well in. It’s very teachable with quite a set formula for getting an A etc/scoring highly on mark schemes. With Lit, things that go beyond the curriculum like having a strong vocabulary, strong critical thinking skills etc are more difficult to explicitly teach and can make Lit more challenging for some students.

NB I have taught both subjects at A Level and also at degree level. Both are challenging but I would say with a good teacher, Lang is slightly easier — but not easy.

I totally agree however I don’t think choice of A level subjects determine a strong / weak CV.
Once you have a 2:1 or 1st in your degree do A level subjects matter esp if they’re high grades? What really matters to secure those damn grad jobs / schemes is the ability to do those pesky online assessments, proven work ethic with work experience and a decent amount of get up and go. I’m really not sure if AAA in History, Sociology, Politics would outshine AAA in Sociology, Politics & Business. It’s everything else that matters more. I’m really not convinced that the vast number of employers look at A level subjects once you’ve a degree.
@Piggywaspushed her new school offer business btec which is modular but she would do their A level which is linear. They don’t offer economics.

I’m surprised they don’t need history A level to take history at every university!

It's because it's such a vast subject. You might know everything about the bloody Tudors*, but how will that help you with an essay about the Turner thesis on the American West, or peasant rebellions in China? It's not like maths or French where what you learned at A-level is a basis for where you start at uni.

What you probably will need is at least one essay-heavy subject that will demonstrate you can research via reading, analyse and structure an argument.

• I loved the Tudors when I was 8. A-level and degree put me right off.

That made me giggle @EBearhug as DD didn’t like Tudors at primary. I was thinking it’s be more interesting at A level / DD2 enjoyed Tudors but disliked witches. They both love a bit of civil rights, Russia & Germany.

Thank you so much everyone. Especially @clary @MrsHamlet @Piggywaspushed
When she’s home from Reading we’ll have a chat about history again and how likely she is to include that in a degree option. Given what you’ve said; the IGCSE course she did (it had coursework); and her not being an avid reader, I’m concerned Eng lit could be a struggle. I also wonder if she’d get higher grades at her current choices; not because they’re easier but because they tap into her interests more. If she could study just for the heck of it and not necessarily pass exams I think she’d love to analyse those eng lit texts and research the Cold War, etc etc. Very unfortunately education is about passing exams (at least a A level) rather than studying for studying sake. Sadly.
Again thank you all as it’s given me some food for thought, which I will pass on.