To take A level English or not?

[NotDonna]

DD has just received her gcse results and done much better than expected obtaining 9’s in History, Eng Lit & Eng Lang. This was not expected but she does have amazing English teachers. They were VERY shocked that she’s not taking English to A level and their surprise has given DD a bit of a wobble over her choices.
She is moving schools and had chosen sociology, politics, psychology and business. They must take 4 to AS then choose one to drop. She’s NO clue what she will do in the future. Should she reconsider and swap one out for English? They’re all new subjects but she’s looking forward to that aspect. She’s not great at sciences (6;6;7). I don’t think she needs English for any uni course other than English does she? Maybe law at some unis. Huge thanks!

Thanks @BarbaraVineFan but not really what I was asking. 😉 I know you’re trying to be helpful but she doesn’t need English lit for International relations or politics. That’s what I’m asking. I also think a business degree can be academic & not a bad degree at all; depends on the modules and where studied. Lots are pretty robust & wanting AAA; look at Bath’s BSc Business for example (not that DD3 would necessarily be a candidate there). I’m not saying she will do business it was just an example of why psychology in the mix is useful.

Ok. My point was that English Lit is a more academic A level than any of those you have mentioned, so would be more highly regarded by universities for academic courses. It is usually not a question of ‘needing’ a subject as such in the arts and humanities, but a question of picking academic subjects which showcase skills like written expression and critical thinking.

Hey @NotDonna so firstly well done to your DD on her great results. Lots of hard work there for sure.

I would advise her, other things being equal, to look at and consider taking either history or Eng lit or both, alongside two of her current choices.

Here’s why:

• Facilitating subjects no longer exist, but there are subjects that are needed for certain uni courses
• None of the subjects she has chosen are needed specifically for any uni course (tho yes psych counts as a science for some courses)
• The degrees she can do with those subjects are the ones that can be done with any A levels (or equivs) – things like journalism, philosophy, sociology, politics, criminology, marketing, law maybe, business
• If she takes history or Eng lit, she can take any of those degrees and history (or English)
• Taking four untried subjects for A level is a big risk; what if she doesn’t like them? Psych is a popular choice but anecdotally a lot of students drop it as it is not what they thought and a bit dull.

At the very least I would advise that she takes a deep dive into her chosen A level subjects – look at the spec, look at past papers – can she see herself being engaged by the things she will need to know and answer?
Might also be worth asking her chosen sixth form what periods of history are studied and what Eng lit texts – as this may make a difference.

If she wants to take business at Bath uni and that needs a science such as psychology (which I think is probably the most valuable of her choices in terms of uni options as it is often counted as a science – tho if she doesn’t like science will she like psych?) then she could drop politics? Is that a passion for her?

Tho tbh if when all of this is considered and she has looked at the specs, she still thinks she would prefer her chosen subjects to Eng lit then go for what she has picked.

It’s not the case btw that unis will look down on her chosen subjects as a general thing – as long as she is not thinking of LSE or Cambs, both of which have a list of preferred subjects.

Here’s LSE’s list https://www.lse.ac.uk/study-at-lse/Undergraduate/Prospective-Students/How-to-Apply/Admissions-Information it includes psych and sociology but not business or politics. But I don’t imagine she is planning on applying there anyway with her A level choices.

Here's Cambridge’s list – with history and Eng lit as a must, then further examples inc psych but none of her other choices. https://www.undergraduate.study.cam.ac.uk/apply/before/choosing-high-school-subjects

Sorry - I don’t mean that history and English lit are musts for study at Cambs! You can of course take bio and chem and maths and go there! I meant they are both on the list of subjects which you are strongly recommended to take at least one of, if you are interested in a humanities course. It’s not a long list.

There's a separate list for science degrees including sciences and maths. Obviously, but not relevant to your DD by the sound of it.

The unknown is how the teaching is in the new school. I think you’re saying that the excellent teaching was a contributory factor to her in-depth English knowledge, resulting in the top grades. Would that apply if the teaching was not as good/ less her style than her GCSE teaching etc.

Its great that her teachers think she should take English, but she was secure in her choices before and if those are the ones that ‘speak’ to her, I think she will be motivated with those, especially as she’s a motivated worker anyway.

I absolutely would swap and think @clary has given good advice. English and history are more academic subjects and she will have a strong choice of universities if she does well at those. I did both and they are great subjects. If she can write, she will probably do well at them regardless of the choice of texts. And it’s not all old English, some of the boards have much more modern selections. At the end of the day she needs good grades for university and seems like she would do well in either or both

Hi NotDonna! I think you know I teach sociology. I'm skipping past all the posters who have decided irrelevantly to cast shade...

What I am wondering, though, is why not history? It goes really really well with sociology. My DS just finished his history degree and said he used his sociology more than his history A level. It also secured him his internship. They really complement each other (and politics).

I will add, though, that sociology is very high on written expression and critical thinking, massively so. It's along standing academic subject at university (where it topples perfectly happily over into thoroughly arcane and pretentious!). It's not new fangled at all. But I know I will never persuade MN on this. Many academics argue in fact that many social sciences and humanities are in fact branches of sociological study.

From reading though, I'd suggest history, politics, sociology. Or History, sociology, English.

I have an English degree and teach English so there's no anti English sentiment here.

Thank you @clary & @Piggywaspushed
She has spent a few agonising weeks deciding between politics or history and eventually politics won mostly because the history is OCR and the weighting of the exams look pretty horrid with 40% on just one paper. Then there’s the NEA (Tudors, which is bizarrely not her fave - go figure!!). My middle DD did history A level, same exam board but different elements. She loved it and it’s prepared her well for analytical essays in her degree. It wasn’t easy though! Not that DD3 is looking for easy. She wants to be engaged & will then do well.
English Lit is also OCR - measure for measure; paradise lost; a streetcar named desire; the bloody chamber. Then yr2 as above plus comparison of paradise lost with Duchess of Malfi; and bloody chamber with Dorian gray. Then coursework comparing streetcar with the bell jar AND write analytical essay on The not dead. (I’ve no clue what any of these texts are as I only did O level English language & no literature). I think they had quite easy texts for gcse - Macbeth; inspector calls; of mice & men; some poetry.

The trachers have done a great job as she used to gate English whereas now… she even occasionally reads for pleasure. She’s always liked history - since primary and I know she’d enjoy the other units / Cold War in Europe (15%); Russia and its rulers (40%); just less sure about later Tudors (25% exam plus 20% essay). 🤷‍♀️

Is that iGCSE for English? Thode texts do sound accessible . GCSE, annoyingly, ditched US lit. OCR can be a nasty level board but some of those texts are ace!

My DS came to love The Tudors. Again, like English, it can be down to enthusiastic teachers.

The main thing is , does she like english lit? Thats the gcse ime thats the most similar to all 3 at a level. I would drop business or politics, psychology can be useful as many unis see it as a science

hahah I was about to post the same thing! Of Mice and Men is very approachable IMHO.

Tbh if she is only now starting to read and her grade is then maybe so good bc of the teaching then perhaps Eng lit A level is not a good idea. I like those texts for A level esp The Duchess of Malfi and Dorian Gray but they are not the easiest. That NEA is very directed – DD got to choose hers but ofc it will vary by board. Tho she did take OCR IIRC.

I presume the GCSE school is a private school if she took IGCSE – is the new school private too? I am thinking if so then the teaching should be excellent especially at A level. (I am basing that thought mainly on my own experience of ex-colleagues who teach in private schools btw – they are all ace but I guess it doesn't always follow).

Could she not take history and politics and sociology and psych? That would give her more options.

Have taught both. Language is definitely easier.
Also do ucas entries every year with my form and to be honest, it really doesn't seem to matter that much anymore.
She needs to go the ones she's best at and enjoys the most.
The best grades in lit come from the kids who are independent thinkers and have natural flair for writing. You can drill them to get high grades in language.

Ditto. As the head of a prestigious school once told me, A Level Lang is the equivalent of the first year of a linguistics degree. I agreed with him. Lit is easier because it's similar to GCSE, just up a level. Lang is totally different.

Could she not take history and politics and sociology and psych? That would give her more options.
Would it?
Yes it was IGCSE and a private school. She’s moving to a mixed state school as they offer sociology - their results at A level are VERY similar to those at her current school despite entry grades being generally lower. It has an excellent if somewhat strict reputation. So I’m hopeful that the teaching will be good. @clary it definitely doesn’t always follow that private schools have better teachers. DD3 has been very lucky with hers. DD2 had a shocker of an A level economics teacher - who’d never taught any A level before in any subject nor studied economics since her own A level (a couple of decades earlier). And sadly hadn’t come from industry either.

Yes it would give her more options because she could do a degree in history, or history and politics, or history and sociology. Possibly other options which link from history A level. As well as all the degrees she could go into with her current choices. Business A level not needed for a business degree.

Fair enough about teaching quality – I mean of course if I stop to think it must vary. That's poor about the economics teacher.

Anyway if she has really probed the specs of the A levels she is planning on (for me a big potential issue here is that she is taking four completely new subjects at A level, surprised no one else has mentioned that) and is still sure about these four, maybe she should go for it.

Sociology is not considered a lesser A level and universities don’t place less value on it. She should do the subjects she is interested in as she will do the best in those.

Thanks @clary yes I’m now wondering given history v politics was such a tough decision if she should consider both, keep sociology (which is main reason she’s moving) and psychology (incase she needs a ‘science’) and drop business. She chose business as they don’t offer economics - which would have been a good choice alongside politics & sociology. She’ll be back from Reading festival in a few days so we can chat then & I’ll show her yours and others thoughts.
Agree @Chilliandbanana sociology is a fabulous option and was the main reason for switching schools.

My DS did sociology, history and economics FYI. He actually wanted to do business but it clashed . He also originally had Spanish in that mix but there was no teacher... so he dropped it, obviously!

Sociology and history really honed his writing skills and his ability to use sources, to evaluate ideas and to weigh evidence. Sociology in particular gave him useful theoretical underpinnings of ideas such as Marxism, feminism, postmodernism. It's really a subject of the evaluation of ideas.

Your DD could also consider whether she wants a mix of assessment types as history and Eng Lit both have coursework, for example.

By the way , for many history degrees you don't actually require an A Level in history. I imagine the vast majority of students have it but it's not always a requirement.

Ooh I’d definitely take English because her other A Levels are all sometimes perceived — rightly or wrongly — as soft subjects. English Lit is a more challenging subject. I would take English Lit if I were her.

Yes I would drop Business. It’s not a particularly well respected A Level and not needed for business degrees etc.

Just saw she’s not a reader. In that case I’d go for A Level English language. Still respected but more accessible. It also goes really nicely with Sociology as she’ll do subjects like language & gender, language and & power and that sort of thing.

You said 'rightly or wrongly' and then declared Lit more challenging! I have taught four A level subjects. Lit was actually the least challenging. No shade on it but it does test the same skill repeatedly and can be an exercise in learning by rote quotations (an extraordinarily bright lad I taught did it to add a facilitating subject as he saw it and constantly told me it could be blagged. Annoyingly he got an A star on very last minute revision). One of the issues with lit can be the overly high standards set by exam boards (same with history) rather than the content : hence every year on MN we read about coursework moderated down ands surprise exam results.

The people most challenged by English are the people who take it only because 'it's a rigorous subject and I thought it looks good', don't much like reading and /or writing and then don't keep up and/or find the jump to more complex texts too much or boring.