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How do I explain to a Y7 why when you multiply two negative numbers it becomes a positive?

135 replies

loveyouradvice · 04/07/2025 22:07

Just that really - I know it does, but can't explain why!

Hoping @noblegiraffe and others might know!!

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taxguru · 05/07/2025 14:41

JustHereForthePIP · 05/07/2025 12:30

Yes, but I think it just reflects on the way maths is taught early in school and a general view (even in primary school teachers) that maths is "hard". It's so common to hear people say "oh, I can't really do maths" but you never really hear "oh, I can't really do reading"...

I find it quite sad, really, that people aren't given the grounding to understand maths and then it does just seem like a huge list or arbitrary rules to memorise.

I taught SEND maths catch up in KS2 primary for years, and there are a remarkable number of young people who have not been taught the very basics of maths so don't really understand numbers at all.

Nail on the head. I do think it's poor teaching at primary level, often by teachers who havn't a degree in Maths (maybe not even A level in Maths) so are "teaching" without knowing the subject properly themselves. Hence why it seems some teachers "teach" pupils to simply learn things rather than explaining them, which explains some of the comments above about being "made up rules". When you have primary school teachers with that attitude, you've no hope of them actually teaching the subject properly.

Maths is almost unique in that if you don't "get" the basics, you'll never succeed in later years. It's like the roots of a tree. The "Bit above ground" is never going to flourish if the roots aren't complete and strong.

We've had various comments on here over the years from secondary Maths teachers bemoaning the standard of primary teaching and saying that they have to spend virtually the entire first year of secondary teaching the basics that should have been taught at primary, before they can start working through the secondary curriculum.

It's a national disgrace really that so many people have the attitude of "I can't do Maths, me!" and are almost proud to say it!

cantkeepawayforever · 05/07/2025 15:20

In many ways, the current primary curriculum for Maths is ‘too big’. You can get a 3 in Maths GCSE answering only questions that explicitly test the primary Maths curriculum, and a set of examples proved a few years ago that the GCSE questions testing this curriculum were simpler than the corresponding ones in Y6 SATs.

This is exacerbated by the fact that able primary mathematicians have traditionally been accelerated through the curriculum to higher years, rather than exploring the large hinterland of Maths that simply isn’t on the curriculum (as an able primary mathematician in the 70s, I explored formal logic; topology; statistics, via a series of assorted books from the back of the classroom cupboard!)

A slimmed down primary curriculum with a lot more explanation and consolidation and (yes) memorisation of key facts like number bonds etc would build stronger roots (while alienating parents who want their children to ‘do the written methods’ as ‘that is proper maths).

What we have instead is White Rose. 47 different explanations of every concept, delivered at a speed that varies arbitrarily between snail-like and Concorde, via 25 page PowerPoints.

cantkeepawayforever · 05/07/2025 15:24

(Oh, and many secondary curriculum designers completely failed to notice the 2014 revision of the Primary Maths curriculum. So they spend Y7 re-teaching concepts that are actually done to death, while berating the ‘terrible teaching’ of things like statistics that have in fact been removed from the Primary curriculum entirely. A local Y5-Y8 Maths working group was a revelation, and lesson observations between the primaries and secondaries involved were eye-opening!)

Soontobe60 · 05/07/2025 15:27

PickAChew · 04/07/2025 23:59

This is about multiplication, though.

Multiplication is continuous addition for positive numbers and continuous subtraction for negative numbers.
6 x 3 =18
3+3+3+3+3+3
6x -3 =-18
-3-3-3-3-3-3
we would show children using a number line with 0 in the middle and show the jumps.

Soontobe60 · 05/07/2025 15:28

cantkeepawayforever · 05/07/2025 15:20

In many ways, the current primary curriculum for Maths is ‘too big’. You can get a 3 in Maths GCSE answering only questions that explicitly test the primary Maths curriculum, and a set of examples proved a few years ago that the GCSE questions testing this curriculum were simpler than the corresponding ones in Y6 SATs.

This is exacerbated by the fact that able primary mathematicians have traditionally been accelerated through the curriculum to higher years, rather than exploring the large hinterland of Maths that simply isn’t on the curriculum (as an able primary mathematician in the 70s, I explored formal logic; topology; statistics, via a series of assorted books from the back of the classroom cupboard!)

A slimmed down primary curriculum with a lot more explanation and consolidation and (yes) memorisation of key facts like number bonds etc would build stronger roots (while alienating parents who want their children to ‘do the written methods’ as ‘that is proper maths).

What we have instead is White Rose. 47 different explanations of every concept, delivered at a speed that varies arbitrarily between snail-like and Concorde, via 25 page PowerPoints.

Yep!

Minieggmummy · 05/07/2025 15:58

Soontobe60 · 05/07/2025 15:27

Multiplication is continuous addition for positive numbers and continuous subtraction for negative numbers.
6 x 3 =18
3+3+3+3+3+3
6x -3 =-18
-3-3-3-3-3-3
we would show children using a number line with 0 in the middle and show the jumps.

Omg it makes sense at last!!!!! What a roller coaster of learning today has been ❤️

Policiesnotpersona · 05/07/2025 16:05

LovelyVase · 04/07/2025 23:46

Argh no! I would never have known to do the multiplication first… I would have made = 50. Why do we do the multiplication first?! Why can’t the sequence be done left to right like reading the letters to make a word? Whyyyy….

Because of BODMAS

Policiesnotpersona · 05/07/2025 16:07

Minieggmummy · 05/07/2025 15:58

Omg it makes sense at last!!!!! What a roller coaster of learning today has been ❤️

OK, now do the same for -6 x -3

BanditLamp · 05/07/2025 16:24

Policiesnotpersona · 05/07/2025 16:07

OK, now do the same for -6 x -3

It is similar to repeatedly subtracting negative numbers

3 take away negative three is 6
3 - (-3) = 6
3 - - 3 = 6

So starting at zero: -(-3) - (-3) - (-3) - (-3) - (-3) - (-3)

Brackets are just there to be clear.

It seems like the best way to teach this is to look at adding and subtracting negative numbers and then look at the multiplication as repeated addition and subtraction.

And if anyone still needs convincing you can quickly infer it from the other arithmetic rules

2 - 2 = 0

Multiply both sides by negative 1 to get
(2 x -1) + (-2 x -1) = 0
-2 + (-2 x -1) = 0

Add two to both sides
-2 x -1 = 2

Mathsisquitehard · 05/07/2025 16:47

topcat2014 · 05/07/2025 10:56

Today I learned it is possible to round in different directions?

(Finance director for 20 years)

Some common stats packages do this. I’ve attached a screenshot of the question I asked, and the AI result.

It’s also in a parliamentary explainer here.

How do I explain to a Y7 why when you multiply two negative numbers it becomes a positive?
proximalhumerous · 05/07/2025 16:51

BathsAreBliss · 04/07/2025 22:44

An enemies enemy is my friend (- x - = +)
a friends enemy is my enemy (+ x - = -)
an enemies friend is my enemy (- x + = -)
a friends friend is my friend ( + x + = +)

I appreciate this doesn’t help with “why” but I’ve been a qualified accountant for 10+ years and I recite this often 😂

As a qualified pedant, I hope you don't mind me pointing out that it should be "An enemy's enemy..." Just the one enemy.

JohnTheRevelator · 05/07/2025 16:56

This has always puzzled me. I googled it and it basically says that a negative number reverses the direction on the number line, therefore multiplying by a negative reverses it twice, resulting in a positive. I think I understand it....... 🤔

proximalhumerous · 05/07/2025 17:11

BountifulPantry · 05/07/2025 09:30

Some maths is clearly made up and this is one of those things.

you just need to accept it to pass your GCSE and then you can ignore it.

I don't think your credit card company will accept you ignoring negative numbers.

Weekmindedfool · 05/07/2025 22:07

JustHereForthePIP · 05/07/2025 12:30

Yes, but I think it just reflects on the way maths is taught early in school and a general view (even in primary school teachers) that maths is "hard". It's so common to hear people say "oh, I can't really do maths" but you never really hear "oh, I can't really do reading"...

I find it quite sad, really, that people aren't given the grounding to understand maths and then it does just seem like a huge list or arbitrary rules to memorise.

I taught SEND maths catch up in KS2 primary for years, and there are a remarkable number of young people who have not been taught the very basics of maths so don't really understand numbers at all.

Yes, but also… some people just cant be helped. I think we found one of them.

RonsonRaves · 05/07/2025 22:13

BathsAreBliss · 04/07/2025 22:44

An enemies enemy is my friend (- x - = +)
a friends enemy is my enemy (+ x - = -)
an enemies friend is my enemy (- x + = -)
a friends friend is my friend ( + x + = +)

I appreciate this doesn’t help with “why” but I’ve been a qualified accountant for 10+ years and I recite this often 😂

God that seems complicated...if the signs are different it is a negative, if the signs are the same it's a positive...simples

ThreeDeafMice · 05/07/2025 22:56

It’s basic number theory.

We start with the positive integers - the counting numbers, and the operation of addition.

When we “add” two integers we necessarily get a third integer. The set of integers is closed under addition.

we create an ordering on the integers, a relationship so that for each integer we can say which come earlier (are “smaller”) and which come later (are “bigger”).

We note that zero is a special value under addition.It maps each integer back to itself. It’s called the “identity” under addition.

We define an operation inverse to addition and call it subtraction. We note that both addition and subtraction share the same identity element: zero.

Unfortunately our set of positive integers isn’t closed under subtraction. 3 subtract 5 isn’t in our set.

So we extend our set: we invent a new concept of “negative numbers” and include them in our set so now our set of (all) integers is closed under both addition and subtraction.

3 subtract 5 is one of those negative integers. Let’s call it Simon. Simon has the special property that Simon add 2 is the zero. In recognition of this fact we label Simon as “-2” and speak it as “minus two”.

in fact we can pair each positive integer in our original set with a friend in the new set of negative numbers, so that when we add any positive integer to its friend the answer is the additive identity, zero.

This gives a convenient labeling for the negative numbers, each as the inverse under addition from the identity element (zero) of a different positive numbers. Writing them pairwise we have 1 and -1, 2 and -2, 3 and -3 etc.

Now we move on to a new operation called multiplication. What properties does it have that will make it useful? Our set of integers is closed under multiplication, but not under the inverse operation “division” - we’d need to invent the idea of rational numbers (fractions) for that - but we can do that later, not now. To be useful we require that multiplying any number in our set by the additive identity (zero) gives zero.

when we look at the structure of our set under multiplication, to be self-consistent (so as not to be able to prove logically things like 1 = 0, which would make our system useless), it turns out that -1 x -1 has to give the same answer as 1 x 1.

similarly Simon x Simon has to give the same answer as 2 x 2.

So the answer is that it’s implicit in the structure of the number system we invented. If minus x minus wasn’t plus we couldn’t use arithmetic for anything useful as it could “prove” nonsense answers like 1 = 0.

LovelyVase · 05/07/2025 23:10

Londonmummy66 · 05/07/2025 14:00

My maths teacher explained it by writing it out like a double entry bank statement with a negative and a positive side (she was hot on real life examples), So if my salary was £200 in the positive side for the month and each week I took out £50 from the negative side then I'd expect to have zero left. (ie 50 x-4 = -£200 and 200-200 =0) If I didn't realise that the bank also took a £1 transaction charge for each withdrawal then the bank had taken away an extra £1x-4 = -£4) from the negative side . If I then complained to the bank that they had not told me about the transaction charges and they agree to refund the 4 lots of -£1 then they will take away from the negative side of the bank account so -£1x-4 - which means that £4 will go to the positive side of the bank account - so +£4. Its easier to follow if its written out with debit and credit sides.

argh tired brain still struggling! The debt was -£4 though so if the bank repaid £4, you’d be at zero surely?

fishfingersnpeas · 06/07/2025 00:03

@loveyouradvice

Doing something nice (+) to a nice person (+) = positive result (+)

Doing something nice (+) to a nasty person (–) = negative result (–)

Being mean (–) to a nice person (+) = negative result (–)

Being mean (–) to a mean person (–) = good result (+)

BanditLamp · 06/07/2025 08:57

LovelyVase · 05/07/2025 23:10

argh tired brain still struggling! The debt was -£4 though so if the bank repaid £4, you’d be at zero surely?

Taking away a negative is the same as adding a positive

You have two hundred pounds in the bank but you owe me ten pounds

So you have +200 but -10
So combining these together you have +190

Now, I say don't worry about repaying that tenner. I take away your debt of ten pounds.

+190 - (-10) = +190 + 10 = 200

I have put + signs in front of the positive numbers.

LovelyVase · 06/07/2025 09:47

BanditLamp · 06/07/2025 08:57

Taking away a negative is the same as adding a positive

You have two hundred pounds in the bank but you owe me ten pounds

So you have +200 but -10
So combining these together you have +190

Now, I say don't worry about repaying that tenner. I take away your debt of ten pounds.

+190 - (-10) = +190 + 10 = 200

I have put + signs in front of the positive numbers.

Thank you so much for explaining this. I do follow your example and that was kind of you to write off my debt Smile.
Could we use this example and extend it to a negative number multiplied by a negative number? Could you say that in a number sentence and in a language sentence?

I’lll try:
so say I owed you ten pounds (whatever my bank balance that’s not relevant now) and then you phoned me up and said you’d miscalculated and actually I owed you three times more than that- which my brain says is -10 x 3 =—30 then I say OK fine and pay you my debt of £30. And that is also the same as saying as of today’s transaction I have -30 in my previous bank account balance of x. Fine. Here we have multiplied a negative number by a positive numbers.

But let’s try to employ the magic rule for multiplying two negative numbers together in this example ..
if I owed you ten pounds and then you phoned me up and said yes the £10 debt still stood but you’ve done your checking and I DIDNT owe you three times more than that that … then I’d still only owe you £10.

Gahhh I have just multiplied -10 by 1 haven’t I?! I just can’t seem to understand and expressing in words what -10 x -3 = 30 would actually mean in a conversation about my personal balance sheet. I think if I could imagine it as a conversation then I could understand the concept behind it. It’s still escaping me though.

LovelyVase · 06/07/2025 10:21

ThreeDeafMice This was great to read and I followed it until:

when we look at the structure of our set under multiplication, to be self-consistent (so as not to be able to prove logically things like 1 = 0, which would make our system useless), it turns out that -1 x -1 has to give the same answer as 1 x 1.
similarly Simon x Simon has to give the same answer as 2 x 2.
So the answer is that it’s implicit in the structure of the number system we invented. If minus x minus wasn’t plus we couldn’t use arithmetic for anything useful as it could “prove” nonsense answers like 1 = 0.

sorry to ask again and I really appreciated how you talked this through with words- but this conclusion part does sound to me like there’s just a rule. That we have to just accept that ( - x - = + ) as the price we pay to have the mathematical system that we use for everything else. That makes me feel this task has revealed a glitch in the maths matrix that I just have to accept.

So to me that says it’s not madness for me to think as I would do (without prior knowledge of the magic rule) that -3 x -4 = -12
because I’d be making a negative 3, four times more negative eg looking leftwards down the number line gets to -12. That seems logical to me, that negative3 - x negative 4 = negative12 looking up the number line rightward. That mirror image idea is wrong obviously but to me it demonstrates logical consistency if positive3 x positive4 = postive12

And what happens if you divide two negative numbers?

I can grasp that the magic rule here is that it’s like using a grammatical double negative to express something binary , like (‘I’m not NOT curious about maths‘ = same as saying ‘ I AM curious about maths’):

so that -3 x -4 = positive12
I do accept that conclusion but only because I can accept the language rule and I’m being told the maths question follow the same rules.

However (without being told there’s a magic rule that I need to overlay over this) I can’t seem to understand or accept this as a number number sentence that adds up to positive 12. I don’t want to have to hold articles of faith in maths, because I have been told how logical and demonstrable maths is.

ErrolTheDragon · 06/07/2025 10:24

LovelyVase · 06/07/2025 09:47

Thank you so much for explaining this. I do follow your example and that was kind of you to write off my debt Smile.
Could we use this example and extend it to a negative number multiplied by a negative number? Could you say that in a number sentence and in a language sentence?

I’lll try:
so say I owed you ten pounds (whatever my bank balance that’s not relevant now) and then you phoned me up and said you’d miscalculated and actually I owed you three times more than that- which my brain says is -10 x 3 =—30 then I say OK fine and pay you my debt of £30. And that is also the same as saying as of today’s transaction I have -30 in my previous bank account balance of x. Fine. Here we have multiplied a negative number by a positive numbers.

But let’s try to employ the magic rule for multiplying two negative numbers together in this example ..
if I owed you ten pounds and then you phoned me up and said yes the £10 debt still stood but you’ve done your checking and I DIDNT owe you three times more than that that … then I’d still only owe you £10.

Gahhh I have just multiplied -10 by 1 haven’t I?! I just can’t seem to understand and expressing in words what -10 x -3 = 30 would actually mean in a conversation about my personal balance sheet. I think if I could imagine it as a conversation then I could understand the concept behind it. It’s still escaping me though.

Try this. Suppose a lovely friend says she’ll lend you £30 and she gives you 3 slips “IOU £10” - they’re ‘-£10 notes’. So, that’s -10 x3, -£30 in total.
So then if she decided to let you off some of the debt, she’d take away (-) one of those -£10 notes from you and leave you with a debt of -£20. Subtracting a negative number makes it less negative, more positive.
Now suppose she decides actually she’s going to let you off the whole amount - she’d take away (-) all 3 IOUs. -3x(-£10) . The net result of all this is of course that she’s given you + £30.

Photonika · 06/07/2025 11:26

Imagine a car moving backwards (negative direction) at a certain speed (negative value). If you want to see how far it travels in a certain amount of time (negative value, playing the video backwards), you are essentially multiplying two negative values. The result is a positive distance because the car is moving forward (positive direction) when viewed in reverse.

BanditLamp · 06/07/2025 12:24

LovelyVase · 06/07/2025 10:21

ThreeDeafMice This was great to read and I followed it until:

when we look at the structure of our set under multiplication, to be self-consistent (so as not to be able to prove logically things like 1 = 0, which would make our system useless), it turns out that -1 x -1 has to give the same answer as 1 x 1.
similarly Simon x Simon has to give the same answer as 2 x 2.
So the answer is that it’s implicit in the structure of the number system we invented. If minus x minus wasn’t plus we couldn’t use arithmetic for anything useful as it could “prove” nonsense answers like 1 = 0.

sorry to ask again and I really appreciated how you talked this through with words- but this conclusion part does sound to me like there’s just a rule. That we have to just accept that ( - x - = + ) as the price we pay to have the mathematical system that we use for everything else. That makes me feel this task has revealed a glitch in the maths matrix that I just have to accept.

So to me that says it’s not madness for me to think as I would do (without prior knowledge of the magic rule) that -3 x -4 = -12
because I’d be making a negative 3, four times more negative eg looking leftwards down the number line gets to -12. That seems logical to me, that negative3 - x negative 4 = negative12 looking up the number line rightward. That mirror image idea is wrong obviously but to me it demonstrates logical consistency if positive3 x positive4 = postive12

And what happens if you divide two negative numbers?

I can grasp that the magic rule here is that it’s like using a grammatical double negative to express something binary , like (‘I’m not NOT curious about maths‘ = same as saying ‘ I AM curious about maths’):

so that -3 x -4 = positive12
I do accept that conclusion but only because I can accept the language rule and I’m being told the maths question follow the same rules.

However (without being told there’s a magic rule that I need to overlay over this) I can’t seem to understand or accept this as a number number sentence that adds up to positive 12. I don’t want to have to hold articles of faith in maths, because I have been told how logical and demonstrable maths is.

If you would like a mini logical proof, try this which I posted earlier. You can do it yourself with different numbers.

Step One
2 - 2 = 0
Happy this is true I assume. Most people are.

Step Two
Multiply both sides by negative 1.
(2 x -1) + (-2 x -1) = 0 X -1

Step Three
Assuming you are happy that zero times anything is zero and that a negative times a positive is negative we can simplify to
-2 + (-2 x -1) = 0

Step Four
Add two to both sides
-2 x -1 = 2

We have just demonstrated that negative two x negative one is equal to postive two. You can try this again with whatever numbers you like.

Basically if zero times any number is zero and a negative number times a positive number is negative then it follows logically that a negative number times a negative number MUST be positive.

BanditLamp · 06/07/2025 12:29

And what happens if you divide two negative numbers?

Well that is quite intuitive actually. How many lots of -2 would be needed to make -8?

-2 + -2 +-2 +-2 = -8

So the answer is 4. We need need 4 lots of negative 2 to make negative 8.