Child being dropped to Foundation - who chooses?

[HeavyRubber]

Hi all,

My DS (Year 11) is currently studying Triple Science at school with mock results of 4s (Biology) and 5s (Chemistry and Physics). The school have notified us that they are dropping him from the Higher Tier to the Foundation Tier for the upcoming exam season.

I would understand this move if he was working at a 1-3 level but this move seems pointless to us, particularly with 3+ months to go, and where his results are already on the border of where Foundation ends and Higher starts.

Who's choice actually is this? The school have indicated that they are going to move him to Foundation but I'm not sure if I have any right to reply, particularly with so few weeks left. This has certainly not been a mutual decision.

Do we have any rights here? Or is this solely a school decision?

Is he really doing Triple or Combined/Double? Maybe he stands better chance of a 5 by doing well at F level.

My so. Did foundation, came out with a 5/5, his friend did higher as was borderline 4/5/6 in mocks and came out with a 4/4. Higher is not everything

Triple.

I think if this had been done as a mature discussion at the start of the academic year then we'd feel differently about it. At this time, it just feels like results protectionism for the sake of the school.

I'd strongly recommend trusting the school's judgement on this! They will want your DS to be achieving the highest possible grade - and a 4 on Higher (and to some extent, a 5) runs the risk of a bad performance on the day leading to a 3 or an Ungraded.
What are your DS' plans for next year? Unless he is intending on Science A Levels 5s in Science should allow him to comfortably proceed onto any post-16 course.

If getting a 4 in a mock then Foundation can be sensible. The exam won't bother with the challenging questions that are designed to sort out the grade 9s from the 7s and 8s and instead gives much more opportunity to demonstrate solid knowledge at a lower level and make that 4 or 5 grade really secure, rather than risking potentially being unclassified.

Could he alternatively be entered for a Dual Certificate GCSE in combined sciences? It's still a more achievable goal than the higher tier triple sciences but comes with the potential to qualify for grade 6 if he does well over the reduced number of topics.

(I will add that a move to Foundation on triple rather than a move to Combined but staying on Higher seems a little unusual - could be worth enquiring if this is a possibility.)

At the end of the day I guess it's a school decision as they submit the exam entries. Questions to ask might be:

How hard has DC (really) worked for mocks? What is realistic in terms of grades?

How important are the sciences to future plans? How do they perform in other subjects?
What level have they been working at over the last couple of years? What sets are they in?
What might they need for Sixth Form / College? What A Levels are they considering? Do they need an average score to access a preferred Sixth Form? What doors might a 5/6 at GCSE open or close?
Any future career plans?

If he drops out of the bottom of the mark range, he will get a U. That is no good for anyone.

DS plans are to study Maths/Economics so not following any path directly related to science but arguably adjacent. Unfortunately, grades in other subjects outside of maths (English/History/Geography) won't be particularly attractive so we were hoping that a reasonable showing in science might bolster his overall results.

Sadly the science does not sound like the buffer you hope for.

Triple and combined are of equal difficulty. If he can't apply the content to an exam Q then he wouldn't be able to do higher combined either. A lot of the triple content is actually easier than combined. Of course, there is more to remember but it is not difficult stuff.

OP, trust the teachers. They make this decision for hundreds of students every year. If they've been teaching for even just 5 years they've likely been part of the decision for over a thousand students.

School will be trying to avoid him getting a U. It is not up.to parents to decide on the tier

Thanks all for your help.

It looks like I've got no say in it then.

At this stage it's a normal choice for the school, it's not just about results protection, if he doesn't pull it out of the bag on the day he'll get 0 so far better for him to move to foundation instead. Getting 4s and 5s at this stage is far too risky for him

This won't be his first set of mocks and won't have been sprung on him either whether or not he has relayed the info to you. Everyone on the cusp would have been told they'll be entered for the lower tier (or higher) depending on performance.

I presume he has been getting these kinds of grades for a while? Rather than suddenly dropping from 6s?

Science is not my subject but in MFL (which is) if a student was sitting at a grade 4/5 I would certainly say F was better. Should shoe them in to a secure, confident grade 5, whereas that level of student on H will be struggling with a lot of the questions, which always knocks confidence (and can lead to worse performance).

Unless a student is pretty likely to get a 6 I would always suggest F. I don't think it's the school protecting its results, more protecting your DS's.

Edit: What else other than maths was he planning for A level? What kind of grade is he looking at in maths.

With sciences, my understanding (having had long convos with school) is that if you are borderline 4 or 5 at mocks, you are much better off taking the Foundation paper as you are more likely to end up with a 5/5 on Foundation and a 4/4 on Higher... but you have no margin on Higher at all.

It's not as clear cut with Maths as to which is the better option with borderline apparently.

I think before I focused on whether I could override the school I would want to understand their decision better. It sounds like the communication has been pretty limited here and it's very reasonable to want more discussion. I'd ask for a call/meeting to get a better understanding before even thinking about whether you can/should object. I'd also ask whether there's an option to do foundation on one or two of the three if he has one that could be a 6 with more focus (depending on how the school does sets this may not work, but being able to mix & match is one of the benefits of triple vs combined).

The difference in the level of the papers can really be beneficial - the questions on foundation are more accessible and there's a lot less chance of a student getting discouraged or wasting time on questions that are beyond them. If there's concern about him failing the higher paper on a bad day then foundation is usually wise. It can also be beneficial for a student's overall exam prospects to redirect the time and effort they'd be spending trying to tackle the content for the higher paper in subjects they won't need at A-level towards other subjects (ex for your DS the time and energy he might spend trying to push up to have a slim chance at a 6 on higher in one of the sciences may be better spent on maths or ensuring sufficient passes elsewhere). But the obvious downside is it caps them at a 5.

What does your son think?
There isn't any great point in taking higher papers unless he wants to go on and study science further or is looking at a solid 7.

Based on those mock results, if he sat the higher papers it sounds like he might get a 6 on a good day, but he's as likely to get a U because he failed to answer (m)any of the questions. Much beter to "bank" solid 5s.

What papers did he sit for mocks? Were they foundation or higher? If foundation, has he ever tried any higher questions?

Why? If he can't answer the higher level questions in Triple science, he's not going to be able to answer them in Combined science either.
And he'll "lose" a GCSE if he moves to Combined. So may not be an option depending on the number he's currently taking.

But it's his results they are protecting! They want him to have the best chance at safely getting a decent grade. Presumably so do you. Who do you think has the better experience and judgement to make the call about which tier would achieve that - them or you?

so he's looking at 4s/5s in all subjects apart from maths and economics? That's an unusual profile and does suggest that there might be untapped potential in the sciences. What are his predictions for maths/economics? If they aren't at least 7s, I'd suggest he's not an A Level student.

It's so awful this division. There should be only one paper attempted by all.

You say his target grades are 4s and 5s? So if he does the lower paper he can meet his target grades if he is up to it. On the higher paper, he wobbles, fails to meet his predicted 4, maybe fails to get a 3, and is then headed squarely for a U. This happens on the lower paper and he can get a 1-5.

The only way he would really be disadvantaged here, is if he did the lower paper could have achieved a 6 on it, but can't because it's capped at 5. However if he's only predicted a 4 or 5, this seems unlikely, unless you think his predicted grade was incorrect for a very specific reason.

We have a similar issue, however dc got a 5, not done any revision, needs to up their game for next round of mocks. Unfortunately the teacher is using F paper as a threat to the class.... "If you dont hand your homework in you are going to be put on F paper" etc.

Dc has time to.up their grade by actually revising, but the "threat" of F paper is pointless, and has tarnished it as being viewed as "You dont want to end up doing that"

It's so ridiculous.

Really, no. The questions that are designed to sift out and properly categorise the 7/8/9 grade students just panic and confuse the grade 4 students and make them do worse. And the questions designed to distinguish between the grade 3/4/5 students are boring and trivial to the grade 8+ students and likely to distract and slow them down

In reality there are 3 "papers" at low, middle and higher and each student takes 2 papers - either lower & middle or middle & higher - but for convenience they are printed and taken as one, but the difficult questions on the F paper are the easy questions on the H paper.

And @HeavyRubber I agree with PP a pupil that isn't on track for at least one, and preferably two secure grade 7 subjects and one or two 6 grades just behind may not thrive in A-Levels. With mostly 4s and 5s and just maths doing better I would suggest looking at a non-Alevel course for your DCs main destination and sign up for a Maths A-Level separately via one of the many online high schools. A Level Economics does have some maths but I would expect a pupil who is going to thrive studying Economics to be getting good grades at at least two out of English History and Geography as it is also pretty wordy.

Instead, there are a lot of vocational advanced diplomas offered by colleges that carry the same UCAS points as A-Levels but may be better suited to your DC, and they are typically only 20hrs study per week so would allow plenty of time for combining with an extra A-Level.