Child being dropped to Foundation - who chooses?

[HeavyRubber]

Hi all,

My DS (Year 11) is currently studying Triple Science at school with mock results of 4s (Biology) and 5s (Chemistry and Physics). The school have notified us that they are dropping him from the Higher Tier to the Foundation Tier for the upcoming exam season.

I would understand this move if he was working at a 1-3 level but this move seems pointless to us, particularly with 3+ months to go, and where his results are already on the border of where Foundation ends and Higher starts.

Who's choice actually is this? The school have indicated that they are going to move him to Foundation but I'm not sure if I have any right to reply, particularly with so few weeks left. This has certainly not been a mutual decision.

Do we have any rights here? Or is this solely a school decision?

Ooooo, I find this triggering OP. Only my experience etc…

I went to a huge comp and we had 14 classes split into two ‘sides’ of the year. So you were streamed from 1-7. They only let the top 2 sets attempt the higher paper or single sciences. Only 120 kids over the whole massive year group of 14 classes had the chance to get more than a C.

I was in set 3 for science so had to do the foundation double science to ensure a C at least.

Honestly I drew the atoms in a liquid/solid/gas for my gcse. Wasted my time revising. rest of my results were A’s. Grade management is very real in some schools.

probably irrelevant to your exact situation but unlikely to be a right to reply. Could he retake externally at a later date? Or plough more time into other areas to boost grades there?

It's not your choice. You don't know the system, you haven't assessed his performance so far and you haven't seen hundreds of pupils go through this same process to have an idea of what's most likely to happen next given his current attainment and other units that haven't yet been examined.

That would be 100 times worse though. What would you do:
You could give higher students no harder questions so the higher grades would be unachievable for everyone.

Or you'd give half higher/half lower questions which would mean:

• half the paper was too hard for most of the students to even attempt which would be totally demoralising for "lower tier" students
• higher tier students had to waste half the exam running through lower questions and so did poorly on the higher questions because they ran out of time.
• "lower tier" students would get themselves wrapped up in a really hard question and fail to have enough time to complete the things they knew, making their grade even lower.

You end up with an exam that takes several hours that a lot of students will only be able to attempt half of and won't get all of that right, and most students who could do really well won't do the right questions to get the higher grades anyway, so everyone's grades would drop significantly.

Not really, as some subjects are completely untiered at GCSE.

So??

Where they area tiered they are different though.

I am currently a TA in a GCSE maths class and there are literally whole areas of maths that might come up in higher tier exams that definately won't come up on lower tier exams.
Currently we have higher groups who learn the higher stuff while their lower group peers spend more time on easier stuff that the higher ones know. If we had to drag all the students through the higher stuff too, they would just fail.

Getting level 4 on a higher paper is bad. They will not be accessing the level 7,8,9 questions for sure. So foundation paper would be more appropriate

Ones where it's possible for a single question to be answered at different levels. E.g in E English you can ask for a piece of creative writing based on a picture. Perfectly possible for a strong writer to answer using lots of different techniques, structures and vocabulary whilst a weaker writer answers in a much simpler way.

You can't set a maths question that is easy enough for a weaker mathematician to answer that is also hard enough for a stronger mathematician to demonstrate understanding of complex ideas. Being a good mathematician is all about finding the simplest way to solve a problem.

The first year of the reformed GCSEs so many schools got this wrong that the exam boards had to create at extra grade for the higher paper to prevent students having no grade at all.

Schools had been entering borderline Grade 4/5 students for the higher paper & they failed. The following year schools were advised that unless a student was borderline grade 5/6 then foundation was the more suitable paper.

We had this with my DS a couple of years ago, but the decision wasn't made until March (I think) when they needed to choose the tiers.
He was predicted 6,5 (combined, not triple) but was producing more like 5,4 in mocks (good physics but the other 2 dragging down).
School talked to DS and he decided he would prefer to do foundation, so when I was told about it (like, the next day), it was a done deal. He got 5,5 which was all he needed and a bit less stress in May/June.
My point would be - do they have to decide now or can you wait a month and see if he can get a better understanding/better grades?

If it's triple, can you not do a mix of tiers?

yes this.

Tbf (as someone who was teaching in the first year of the reformed GCSEs) the grade boundaries suggested it would be a lot easier to gain a 5 at H – but ofc that's bc the questions are a lot harder so you need fewer marks for the grade 5. In fact in my subject (MFL) in the wake of the first year where it was just maths that was on the new tiered spec, we quickly realised this and revised our plans, instead entering the 4/5 candidates for F paper.

When the results come out will a college, university or employer know whether it was a higher or foundation paper sat?

When CSEs and O levels became GCSEs in the 1980s I thought these reforms were meant to remove the "stigma" of doing CSEs instead of O levels, but this seems to have been been replaced by higher and foundation papers, so nothing much has changed really.

No they won't know. The certificates are the same. Sixth college however may require grade 5 for example gained through higher tier for some subjects.

Anecdata: I tutor for science and I've got a student who is likely to get a 4/5. They've just done mocks at school, did the Higher papers, came out with 3s (which in the real thing would likely be a U, school have said 3 dues to just dropping off the bottom).

She's done a Foundation paper for me and was 1 mark off a 5. Without even really trying.

The grade boundaries make it look like it's easier to get a 5 on higher, but the foundation paper is so much more accessible.

Exactly. My school used to let the parents have the final call, though they were heavily advised to follow our guidance and allow their child to be entered for Foundation if we said it was best. Every year we had a few kids whose parents refused and who dropped off the bottom and got a U. New Headteacher changed it and now we choose. No more U grades and definitely quite a few who get 5s who would probably have got 3 or 4 on a Higher paper. Parents are often not able to be realistic about their child's ability or motivation.

Really? Afaik a grade 5 is a grade 5. Agree for sure that the certificate does not say H or F; I don’t see why a post-16 provider should ask tbh.

Can you speak to the school and get a tutor to try and give him support to increase his grades?

It's a fact of life there are children of very different abilities – those who are academically capable and those who are not but who can excel at vocational studies. Foundation level means those who are the latter can still earn pass grades that will allow them to get on college courses. One paper would massively disadvantage them. It's no different to O-levels and CSEs.

Just to add that he could do Foundation in the weaker science (Biology ?) and higher in the stronger science if a comfortable 5. May be worth asking the school of they would consider this.

How much revision did he do for mocks? So much of Physics GCSE is maths that I would think a maths A-level candidate should be able to get a decent grade on the the higher Physics paper without too much effort.
I would definitely investigate taking different tiers in the different subjects but I would defer to the school for the final decision.

I don't agree. My son is a hard worker but with spld. He took foundation at gcse and got solid 4's across the board. He did really well for him and is thriving on his FE college course. The academic calibre of a student obtaining 7, 8 & 9s is so different and those students need their chance to be stretched and shine.

The teachers will know whether these results are indicative of likely attainment or whether your DS is ‘capable but lazy’ and thus underachieved in mocks. DS got a 4 in his Chemistry mock but was entered for Higher and ended up with a 6. However, his mock exam just went really badly. Other module results had been much better.

If all three science teachers are suggesting sitting foundation papers then I would trust their judgment on this. Grades can go down as well as up between mocks and actually GCSEs. DS got 6s on both Bio and Phys for mocks but ended up with 5s in the actual exams. He worked equally hard on revision for both sets of exams.

This. It's plausible that they are doing this to maximise his grades and protect him from "U"s. I would be inclined to trust them if they know him well. I do think it's their choice ultimately, but they should be happy to talk to you about it and listen to your arguments.

As @LikeABat says, since he's doing triple have they considered each one separately? For a good mathematician eg Physics higher might make sense, even if Biology higher doesn't.