Went to Qe Boys Barnet, AMA

[Terrberr]

A tube passenger saw my Qe bag and wanted to ask about the school. It hit me that something like this might be helpful.

I finished A levels about 4 years ago and went to Oxbridge. I’ve recently started working at an investment bank.

Hi, is it true that QE boys has more than 95% Asian students? What is the typical commute time for the students.

What criteria does the school use to decide whether a student can continue into the sixth form?

Interesting post - thanks OP! I'm just curious, not particularly invested (have just the one daughter, no sons), but live locally and am curious about the school.

• Is it the hyper-competitive hothouse that everyone claims it is?
• Is the school very STEM-focused? Would you have felt equally validated in your choices if you'd wanted to pursue e.g. acting or music, rather than Oxbridge and banking?
• A friend is heavily tutoring her Year 3 son for the QE Boys exam. The family is White British - given the current ethnic make-up of the school, would he stand out, or be likely to struggle socially at all?

QE? What school is this?

yes. I think it’s a function of the fact that Asian parents tend to place greater emphasis on education attainment and are less concerned about their child not being able to manage stress.

commute time varies. Mine was just over 1 hr by school coach (coach picked me up at 730 and dropped by back at 5pm). Some of my friends lived a 30 second walk away. One person I know used to commute in from Brighton on Sundays, live with family friends during the week and then commute back on Friday.

in years 10 and 11, we had our usual tests for all GCSE subjects (based on the GCSE curriculum) that determined our sets. In addition we had “essential skills” tests which were partly based on GCSE curriculum as well as some A level type questions (but no new content). In order to get an “offer to study” one had to reach the pass threshold - the requirements differ by subject and are made very clear in year 9. E.g. to be able to do maths A level, one needs an average of 80% or above in the first 9 essential skills maths tests and 75% or above in each of the final 3 tests. You can only take an A level if you get the offer to study. Many people leave because they didn’t get an offer to study a subject they wanted to.

to give you a sense of what this looks like, I’d estimate about a third of my year group left for sixth form. I got offers to study for all of my subjects, I’d estimate there were about 20 of us.

Queen Elizabeth’s school, Barnet. It’s objectively one of the best boys grammar schools in the country by ranking snd tends to send 40-50 kids to Oxbridge every year out of about 120 students in its sixth form.

i helped out with entrance tests when I was in year 8 and remember there were ~3000 applicants for 180 year 7 places. I imagine it’s even more competitive now

My dad and my brother went there as they were both born in Barnet and passed the 11+
Neither would get in now.
It was a school, even then, that didn't agree with provincial Universities.
Or my father or brother. 🤣

barnet is a lovely area! I didn’t live nearby but I grew very fond of the place.

1. i wouldn’t say it was competitive (students help each other, there isn’t a zero sum game mentality), but standards are very high. However good you are, there will be someone better, and if you are the best there is someone knocking on your door, all the time and without fail. While there are other social groups (eg sports, music/ choir, etc), academics generally dominate social groups. For GCSEs there were 9 sets for each subject with tests every term to determine set changes. Anything less than an 8 grade is shockingly poor, and the best students will consider a low 9 a wake up call. The same goes for music/ sports; there is no culture of slacking/ not caring - everyone will play to win at everything all the time. By some point in year 10 we realised getting a 9 was a given and so meant less than getting a higher score than our friends/ classmates - there were a few good natured rivalries.
2. yes, but it depends what. a few of my friends left to join guildhall for various instruments and a couple of the best musicians become music scholars at Oxbridge every year. Same for sports - we used to destroy the other grammar schools at cricket and rugby, but were no match for the private / public schools who have a sports intake past year 9. There wasn’t much for acting though. having said this, there is an expectation that you will still meet the bar on your academics - there will be people who are GB ranked and still get 9s/ A*. I assume your question is not STEM focussed and you simply mean academics - I studied a humanities degree for instance.
3. race was not something that affected your social group at all. We joked about it (and mildly offensive jokes were common), but this was not taken seriously at all. Social groups were determined on the basis of a) your form group, b) your set, and your academic ability and c) your clubs and societies and other interests - eg sports, music, choir, subject related clubs etc

I took the entrance test more than a decade ago, and honestly think academic standards have become even higher.

Was it as disciplined/ strict when they went as it is today?

One of my DS friends left an extremely competitive and academic independent school to join QE at 11plus. This kid is a complete genius - was told he could do maths/physics A-level at 13 with ease, has won multiple national stem awards, scored extremely highly in ESAT exams and is set to go to Cambridge next year. He is a super brain and his academic world is everything to him.

He loathed QE boys. Left after one term to return to the private school. He was academically top of the year at QE, so it wasn’t a case of feeling put out that he was now surrounded by other uber-high ability kids - he and his parents both felt the environment was a negative one that doesn’t make for well rounded, happy teenagers - however smart they are.

@Terrberr Thank you for the detailed response - so interesting to have a first-hand perspective! My partner and I both attended another local grammar back in the '90s - also super-selective but not quite as competitive as QE. I very much doubt either of us would make the grade nowadays!

Good to hear that there's little in the way of racial tension; my friend's family are very keen on the school and this was their one reservation. Many other people I know locally have looked at QE but discounted it for their children out of a combination of worries about the ethnic make-up and not wanting to place excessive stress on their child. One actually turned down a much coveted place to attend another local school that was slightly more mixed.

You did say AMA…. so,

a) What is your ACTUAL motivation to come onto mumsnet and start this thread, rather than on Reddit or Discord ? Mumsnet is not exactly the standard hangout for 22 year old investment bankers….

b) do you have younger siblings currently at the school? because if not your cohort information will be 5 years out of date, and a LOT can happen in a school in 5 years….

c) Why do you think QEB has so many Oxbridge applicants? Is this because the same cohort of parents who tutor their children into the school are only happy when their children aspire to an Oxbridge STEM degree? Doesn’t this restrict the boys from picking the subjects they may have actually want to do? (or do the artists and creatives just leave the school at sixth form en masse)

thanks for answering.

I sense a bit of hostility here, not sure why though.

1. I’m off work this week and while I recover from burnout thought I’d do something helpful. Mumsnet isn’t my hangout (I made my account yesterday), but it’s where I imagine parents of primary school kids are
2. no, but I go back every year to catch up with my teachers and volunteer at events. You’ll need to use your judgment to determine what is out of date (likely specific rules/ curriculum) and not (culture/ ethos/ general process)
3. i don’t think you have kids over the age of 14. Parents don’t really influence university choices, we all applied because we thought we’d enjoy studying at either of two good universities- it was the natural next step. Nothing nefarious about it. I don’t know anyone who’s parents pushed them to do anything, it’s much more your friend group are applying and your teachers telling you youre good enough. Plenty of people apply to Oxbridge for arts/ humanities degrees. Art A level was two classes in my year, as was music. A lot of people seem to think we all just did further maths and sciences but it’s unfounded. We did a pretty wide variety of subjects, but whatever we did there was social pressure to be incredibly good at it. The school also sets a bar you have to meet to be able to do a subject at A level- this is a school that believes students should pursue their interests as long as they are actually good at it. The people who have a huge spike or just very good at everything thrive and the ones that aren’t either work hard to keep up or get demotivated and end up leaving. That’s fine, it isn’t meant to be a school that works for everyone.

Sometimes my friends and I wonder if we’d have made the cut - and we were all set 1 out of 9 for every subject!

things may have changed, but race was a complete non-issue when I was there. The only time physical characteristics had any impact was on the rugby field.

the school works for kids who’s instinct when faced with failure is to dig deep. Initially, exams stress everyone out, but by the time you’ve done 50 by April of year 7, you become desensitised to it. By the time you get to year 11, GCSE exams are not stressful.

when faced with exams, homework, sports, club commitments - every student will fail at some point. You’ll be moved down sets, you won’t make the cricket team, etc. If your reaction is to question how good you are or complain, you will find Qe really hard. You’ll find it easier if you put your head down and try even harder - I think qe conditions this as well.

I think this mentality is why so many oes do so well at Oxbridge (in certain subjects the top 10 ranked students every year are 3-6/10 from qe), and the corporate world.

Do you think it's ethical that schools should have two bites at the selection cherry, i.e. that having been fully selective at 11, and able to take only the top 10% of applicants, they then manage out one-third of the cohort at 16. Doesn't that say they've spectacularly failed one-third of the cohort? Wouldn't many other schools be able to achieve just as high A level results if they aggressively managed out a similar proportion of their cohort? Don't you think a school that was ethically managed would put pastoral care and individual welfare before league table position?

Also, how often do you think someone comes on to one of the education forums claiming to be a parent or pupil and saying very positive things about a school, but actually turns out to be staff/management/proprietor of the school in question?

1. I’m off work this week and while I recover from burnout thought I’d do something helpful. Mumsnet isn’t my hangout (I made my account yesterday), but it’s where I imagine parents of primary school kids are

I’m sorry that you’re experiencing burnout: it’s one of the down sides of being a very highly driven person: and also more common in folks who aspire to perfection from an early age. I hope you can find a version of life that works well for you and prevents that from happening repeatedly.

No hostility intended: but if you’re starting an “ask me anything” having parachuted into the forum for no clear reason, we get this all the time, (usually from trolls/journalists/folks with an axe to grind) so it’s quite normal to query why a new poster has decided to spontaneously join and start a thread . It’s so common on mumsnet we even have a “biscuit” emoticon (as in “don’t feed the troll, goventhem a biscuit”). For all we know you’re a school employee popping in to advertise how fantabulous the school is, for example letting us parents know how many of the very best Oxbridge performers came from QE…. why do you think we need to know this? it sounds quite self-promiting and an odd thing for a recent uni graduate to be telling us.

You’re conflating two different things. He probably didn’t gel with the culture, which is fine. This doesn’t mean qe boys aren’t well rounded and happy.

My friends and I at some point: sang in a BBC choir on live TV, played water polo for GB, played cricket at county level, won gold at international maths/ astrophysics Olympiads, won a moot court competition in NY, played at the national youth orchestra, etc etc. At the same time we got all 9s at GCSE, A*s at A level and went to Oxbridge/ HYPSM. We’re still in regular contact (if we had had a bad time at qe would we be?)

people seem to think that because it’s a good school/ their brothers aunts husbands dogs sisters owners son hated it it must be a toxic school. It’s certainly not for everyone, nor does it pretend to be (nor should it imo). But for 180 boys every year it’s a really wonderful place.

personally, qe was the best thing that happened to me. Plenty of examples of boys that qe didn’t work for

“ i don’t think you have kids over the age of 14. Parents don’t really influence university choices, we all applied because we thought we’d enjoy studying at either of two good universities- it was the natural next step. “

Bless you, sweet summer child, that answer just shows you have no clue how much your school and parental norms have influenced you going through your educational journey. I have DC at uni and I know of lots of parents who steered their children towards “worthy” degrees because some are more boastworthy than others. A highly selective school is much more likely to encounter this.

Oxford and Cambridge are not the “natural next step” for anyone and it’s quite arrogant to assume that other universities are automatically inferior, I hate to tell you that some other universities are actually quite good at what they do too….

I am glad, though to read that arts are also encouraged at your school and that it’s not all STEM and nothing else. What’s important and helpful to us is that you’re painting the school as a highly pressured sausage machine that guarantees 9s and Russell Group uni places.
Which is not the priority for many parents.

Thanks, I’ve realised it’s an occupational hazard though.

That’s fair. To be clear, the school really worked for me personally. Let me state the things that could be negatives then for balance:

• it’s a boys school, we all struggled talking to girls in our first term of uni
• few parties. On weeknights my friends and I did homework, after school activities, etc and on weekends I revised for tests and updated my revision notes and played sports. I was too busy for a party
• strict discipline. You will get shouted at if your shirt is untucked. No beards allowed (except religious reasons) and you’ll get sent to the nurse who will give you a disposable razor and a sink if you hadnt shaved. If you forgot your swimming trunks you would wear whatever was in the rugby changing room lost and found instead. Really quite hilarious (happened to everyone at some point), but I imagine tough if you are a sensitive kid
• social culture: The cool kids were the well rounded smart kids, the musicians/ sports kids had groups, everyone else was invisible
• no football during PE, only rugby. Pro for me, con for many others
• Pastoral care: might have changed but mental health was not really a thing. There was a counsellor but don’t know anyone who went. The teachers were great, this was mostly led by the boys actually. Lots of people left in my year and got depression etc at uni.

Can be tough to fit in if you aren’t outgoing, pretty good at almost everything (or very good at one thing) and sensitive

The no pastoral care comment sounds quite worrying, to be honest. Support of Mental health needs during adolescence is vitally important to create happy and well rounded adults leaving the school, and if that’s not the priority at QE then it’s failing to fully support a highly intelligent cohort: academic excellence is only part of a school’s role in promoting a lifetime of learning and achievement, mental wellbeing is just as important .

I’m sorry that transition to university (which is challenging for every student) has resulted in mental distress for those QE alumni who weren’t supported/prepared for the change by the school.

Hopefully that has improved since your cohort attended QE.

Not at all. My parents knew I was enjoying school and vaguely what I wanted to do at uni (I went from Medicine to economics to history to English). that was pretty much it. We had 1:1s with teachers trying to get a sense of what we might want to do and presentations talking about the importance of finding our own way, not our parents. I don’t know anyone who applied/ studied anything they didn’t want to - think the school would step in if they found this happening.

i don’t mean to be arrogant, just trying to explain our mentality at the time. Qe is a bubble, and it did feel like the natural next step. To be blunt, I only applied to Oxbridge and 2 schools in the US. I expected to get in because I’d been prepped well enough. This isn’t a dig at other unis - I’m sure they are really very good. I just thought I’d see a continuation of the qe culture at Oxbridge which is what i wanted.

if you conflate 9s and russell group with sausage factory, I think you have a bit of a narrow worldview. Having said that, I agree - ive said multiple times qe is absolutely not for everyone. It suits a certain kind of kid. Not every kid meets the bar and not every kid who meets the bar has the kind of personality and ethos which would mean they enjoy the culture. My uni friends from certain private schools had very similar experiences - I think you have a parent who wants to really stretch your kid. Plenty of schools which are better for other types of kids.

I imagine it has. A decade ago, mental health wasn’t really a thing (neither was MeToo, conversations about race, gender etc). A lot had changed in the last few years.

i mentioned earlier that the school is actually quite supportive of these things. The boys themselves are pretty conservative, perhaps as a result of families, perhaps because it is a boys school, perhaps other reasons. This social culture drives the need to achieve but also sort of downplays the need to think about mental health.

@Terrberr Thanks for the reply.

Upon reflection, if your parents hadn't applied to QE for you or if you hadn't attended QE for any reason, do you think you would still be on the same path as you are today?

PS. I studied at Oxbridge many years ago, and my experience doesn't quite resemble the culture you mentioned during the college time. Perhaps things have changed now.

i don’t know about the ethics, but i can tell you what the rationale is. The idea is that the school wants students to do something they enjoy doing and also something they are good at. Essential skills tests are meant to demonstrate aptitude, not just at A level standard but beyond, and the idea is that you can look at your results and reflect on where your strengths lie academically.

my experience was everyone who stayed did very well, everyone who left to do subjects qe wouldn’t let them didn’t do so well comparatively. It isn’t life or death - think the difference between upper tier Russell group and lower tier Russell group.

league tables aren’t really talked about at school. Since graduating I’ve been in governing board meetings and they don’t come up there either. Conversations tend to be about the student experience. If you look at major investments the school has made in the last few years: a new music hall, better sports facilities- neither translate to league position. I’m sure pastoral care can be improved, personally I’m not sure what tangibly the school should do

On your last point - I’m not a regular on this forum and have no idea. There seems to be a negative bias against qe on this forum (I’m really not sure why) which has come as a surprise to me.

No. For me it was the best thing that could have happened, personally and now professionally. Qe definitely made me - I’m definitely a real life example of QEs progress8 stat

Not sure what it was like when you were there, but it was sort of split into 2 parts. The first were the people who thought they works enjoy 3 years and would be guaranteed a job at the end of it (either through family connections, or because they didn’t know any better). The second half were people from qe/ other similar schools who knew we had to do well. We ended up getting good jobs, while the first half are now either struggling or living off family connections/ money (neither of which I have). The job market has apparently become a lot more competitive that it used to be according to older bankers in my company - I ofc don’t have a reference point.

I’d you’re interested, a LinkedIn search of people who used to go to qe might be interesting.

@Terrberr - it’s great you had a wonderful time there and I’m not suggesting QE is a toxic school. It’s just interesting to me that a child who is super academic and already at a school that has a similar reputation to QE (results-driven, competitive, ‘pushy’ if we are being negative) really disliked it. You mention ‘not fitting with the culture’, but on the face of it the cultures at both schools sound quite similar, so I just question the environment itself. Obviously it’s dependent on a number of factors and this is just one child’s personal experience - but it seemed quite striking.