A-level choices for uncertainty

[quoque]

DC is clever and at a great school, with a good chance of straight 8 - 9 in GCSE, but doesn’t know what she wants to do at uni yet. For her A-level choices she talked about modern lang (she is dead set on this), maths/further maths and physics, but last night she said she prefers English to maths and would like to maybe do lang, maths, physics and English.

It feels like this is just about open-ended enough for potential English or degrees in the modern language AND maths or physics related degrees depending on how she feels closer to the time. But maths or physics at a top ten university might need maths AND further maths and physics, right? And I am anxious about her narrowing her options there. I feel the language + English is probably fine for applications to study English (or the language!).

She hasn’t noticed this yet, but the only subject she TALKS about at home is history. So there is a risk of that popping up, especially if she gets a good GCSE in it!

For a child who is good at everything, how would you advise her or do you reckon she’s fine and to leave her to it? Her school wants to do its timetabling sooner rather than later, and would like ideas before Christmas.

Young people should be allowed to keep exploring subjects at A level. Let her take the ones she wants, rather than preparing for her hypothetical maths related choice at university.

She will still have plenty of fantastic math/ physics related choices without further math.

My understanding is that if her school offers further maths and she doesn’t take it, she'll have no chance of maths, physics, economics, or engineering courses at the very top universities. Maths A-level is great for all sorts of reasons, even without studying STEM at uni, but my view is that you and she should have a look at the specific uni requirements for different degreees (see UCAS and the specific uni course web pages) to see what options will / won't be open. MFL, English, history, and maths would be great for lots of courses in languages, literature or social sciences, PPE, or language with a practical/business element, I think.

Alternatively, maths, FM, physics, and a language would be wonderful. There are great engineering with a year abroad courses that that would work for, and it wouldset up maths or physics degrees.

Physics without chemistry or FM or art/DT (thinking of architecture) or even biology just doesn't seem helpful. Many courses are flexible about which A-levels a student takes, but I don't see maths+physics opening up more doors than just maths in the absence of the complementary subject above. If she's genuinely really good at maths, FM seems a better choice for a second STEM - that would open up economics and maths degrees and be generally impressive - and less work as a 4th A-level.

Not even a bit true

One of mine was similar and later regretted physics and chemistry - did physics to AS and chemistry to A level. I suggest English lit, history and french (or whatever modern lang. your child likes) for A levels. I did English list, history and German and am a lawyer.

@Pinkissmart , can you elaborate more specifically?

Maths further maths physics is good for Physics or engineering.

Would she consider doing maths or physics at uni with a year abroad which would benefit her language skills?

I'd be concerned about her taking 4 A-levels if one isn't further maths.

Maybe she should IB. She can do 5 subjects then.

My DS is currently studying an engineering discipline at University which is well regarded in the field.I don't know if it's top 10 this year but certainly has been in recent times and he declined an offer from a University that is definitely consistently in the top 5-10. He didn't do Further Maths and his 3rd A level was not a STEM subject. I did wonder if his A level choices might disadvantage him but he found many courses that he was eligible for and got offers from all 5 Universities he applied to.
Obviously it will vary from institution to institution and from course to course even within the same faculty so it would make sense to look at the specific requirements for a range of courses, but there are definitely lots of options open to students with less traditional A level combinations than there were in the past.
My DS was quite unsure what he wanted to do until well into Year 12 so he picked A levels that he felt would leave a number of doors open and I was pleasantly surprised to find that this is both more accepted and common than it was in my youth. We were forced to nail our colours very firmly to the mast of either "science" or "arts" in my 6th form and I remember a friend who wanted to do both Maths and French A levels having to fight tooth and nail to be allowed to do so. I don't think they'd bat an eye at my DC's school now. Certainly my DS found the Universities that he applied to seemed a lot more interested in what grade he got for his 3rd A level than the actual subject.
I'd look at a variety of degrees that she might be interested in OP and see if there is a combination of subjects which leaves her options open, though I agree with those who have said that 4 A levels is a very big ask even for a bright student, especially if FM is not one of them, so I'd try to settle on 3. If her school offers EPQ she could do something related to a different subject to demonstrate wider interests and abilities.

@LimeSqueezer, Maths+Physics+non-STEM would keep engineering and physics open at all but a very small number of academically very selective engineering or physics depts.

Maths+FM+non-STEM+non-STEM would keep very selective courses in Maths, CS and Econ open but on the expectation that Maths would be Astar and FM at the very least at A (not a slam dunk even if GCSE Maths likely to be an 8 or 9); it is unlikely school or college would allow one of the two non-STEM to be dropped, whilst retaining FM, unless it was clear that FM performance was very good and a Maths, CS or Econ degree was the intended destination.

Obviously it is more usual to combine Maths and Physics with another science but, in the summer of 2024 A level exams, 860 18 yo combined M+Phys with History, 555 with either French or Spanish and 285 with Eng Lit.

The international baccalaureate might suit her if there are schools near you that do it.

It is tricky to get into a maths degree from it without topping up because most applicants for very competitive maths degrees have maths and physics and further maths.

In all seriousness though, this sort of trying to keep your options open at a level doesn't really work. A language a level is a good addition to most combinations.

Maths goes with sciences or social sciences but if you are not planning on doing those there isn't a lot of point doing maths a level.

Maths English and an mfl just shuts down options - a maths degree is a possibility but the good ones want further maths, an mfl degree is a possibility (but you've only got one language there).

@quoque it's probably unwise to decide based on relatively marginal preference for one subject versus another. That could all change at A level with different teachers and syllabuses. Better to think more widely about what she sees herself doing in the future. If it's engineering, then further maths will definitely help

Many schools will only allow 4 A levels in exceptional circumstances - the most common being that 2 of them are maths and further maths. Assuming she has an aptitude for maths there will almost certainly be less work involved in the maths/fm/physics/mfl combo than in maths/physics/mfl/english. That's because maths, further maths and physics all complement each other and have a certain amount of overlap. If she does the second combo she is more likely to get stressed and need to drop a subject.

Math + physics opens many doors to study physics, engineering, finance, math ( not all universities but many) computing or economics. The additional language opens doors to study languages, and degrees with a language component.

OP I would look at IB if that’s an option near you. My DS has just started and is really enjoying the wide variety of subjects - you get to do 3 subjects at standard (his are English, History and Spanish) and 3 at higher (Physics, Chemistry and Maths for him). He was similar to your DC and had great grades across the board and wasn’t sure which direction to go in, there was a leaning to STEM but he loves history so it’s great he can carry on with that too. It is hard work and they do have to be organised and motivated but so far so good for us

Dd has done exactly this, but with biology instead of physics. She did the research first on the type of biology courses she might want to take to check that biology+maths would be fine, and did the same with the English/MFL courses. Shes loving sixth form, and really pleased that she kept the breadth of subjects.

If she prefers English to maths, it doesn't sound like she's likely to be heading for a maths degree, so I wouldn't worry about keeping that option open, although further maths is also a good idea for physics.

I agree that if there is an IB school in your area, that would be a really good option for her.

Maybe she should try and explore a bit more what might interest her beyond A-level. Might she be interested in linguistics? (Try looking at the linguistics olympiad - https://www.uklo.org/ - perhaps ask the school if she can have a go. It appeals to those with a bit of a mathematical bent as well as languages - probably easier for those who have done Latin or German, as they tend to know more grammar.)

Echoing others: she sounds like a prime candidate for IB.

FWIW, my younger brother sounds similar to your DD.
He did French, German, Maths (&maybe FM. Can't remember.)

Then went and did German & Portugese at Oxford.

Definitely think about the longer term.

English, MFL and history would be great prep for a degree in any of those areas. Maths goes well as a fourth.

But I would avoid the maths altogether if she can't get a 9 at GCSE. It is such a step up at A level.

Disagree with this. A 9 is a good idea for further maths, but not necessary for maths.

All A levels are a step up from GCSE.

I agree with those who suggest looking at IB – depending obvs on its availability local to you.

I also agree with @noblegiraffe and others that four A levels without one being FM is probably too much. And there is no need in uni terms.

FM is useful for sure if planning maths degree – I would expect someone with those kinds of GCSEs to be looking at the top-rated unis and most of them will prefer/expect/assume FM. I know they don't say it in their offer info but that's bc some schools don't offer it. But look at stats for maths degree and what A levels they got. Not taking FM doesn't rule out maths at uni but it can be an issue, Lots of MN threads on this.

Maths without FM is good tho – DS2 took it and it has been helpful to him for sure in his STEM degree.

MFL, maths and Eng lit is a great combo actually, tho of course the STEM boost of maths A level is missing as a STEM degree is unlikely with that combo. But maths A level is never a bad thing to take.

I remember a friend who wanted to do both Maths and French A levels having to fight tooth and nail to be allowed to do so.

@AgeingDoc that's interesting – when was this? I very nearly almost took 2 x MFL and maths A levels (took my As in 1982!) at my very trad girls’ grammar. No one was against it at all (but in the end I changed my mind. Wish I had done maths but hey). i think maths with arts subjects or science and humanities is certainly fine with schools but a solo science is a bit random as many unis prefer two for a science degree (not all by any means tho)

Also early 80s @clary
The timetable at our school (mixed comp in a solidly working class town in the North)was scheduled in such a way that it was virtually impossible to do a mixture of art and science subjects as it just wasn't expected. Mind you, girls doing science was considered a bit weird too. I was the only girl in my Physics class and my friend was ultimately one of 2 girls who took Maths.
I don't think our school was unique though as I know other people who had similar experiences in different places.

I'm sure that's true. My school being all girls, they had to allow girls to take science or no one would haha 😅

But 60 out of 80 in my year in sixth form took Eng lit. And only about 5 did physics.

My dc are aghast that there was no space at all on the school curriculum for tech (or woodwork as it was then) - all I was offered were cookery and needlework. Dt was for boys.

Thanks everyone for all this - lots to mull over.

She hasn’t got the faintest idea what she wants to do, which is a little frustrating. I could see her in academia, and so could she, but something a bit more solid at this stage would be helpful!