What would you think if this was your local state option

[Rosienose]

Results for GCSE Maths and English last year

English & Maths Grade 4+ 75%
Maths grade 4+ 82%
English grade 4+ 80%

English & Maths grade 7+ 17%
Maths grade 7+ 26%
English grade 7+ 29%

I was assuming it was data published (and shouted about!) directly by the school.

Edited to add: Agree those results are pretty impressive for a comp btw. The individual levels of 7 in maths are above the % in England.

Tell me you have no idea about education...

Those results are very impressive.

Why? Poor results aren't contagious. If your child has capacity to do well then they will do well.

The local non-selective private school achieves 70% of pupils getting a 7+ in both maths and English. I assumed the best non-selective state schools would be closer in performance than they appear to be as the private school in question is not exactly known for academic excellence.

Small class sizes, can expel misbehaving pupils, supportive parents...

a private school whether selective or not does not have - recent migrants who don’t yet speak English, children who arrive as they’ve moved into refuge, children from families who honestly don’t value education eg move their child in Y11 (this are kids my DC have been to school with) etc

That would count as a an exceedingly excellent school in Norfolk.

A private school by definition is selective – in that only those whose family can afford it can go there. There is a link between parental support and academic achievement and how well the child does. Not surprisingly. Chances are parents who can afford private school have also achieved well in education (hence their earning power is higher) and they also value education. That's going to be a massive boost for their children. And yes smaller classes, ability to manage out those who do not do well.

A state comp has students who have ESL, whose home lives are chaotic, who have SEN at varying levels. Students who do well to get to school each day in their uniform with a pen, never mind having a quiet spot to do their homework. Most of those students would not be attending a private school.

You just cannot compare the two.

Private schools are selective by income. If you can't pay, you can't go. I can't believe you're expecting the results to be similar.

Hmm. Our local selective private school has 70% of pupils getting a 7+ in English and maths. And it's generally considered to be one of the most academic schools locally.

Do you have a lot of extremely high achieving schools locally, to the point that you don't really have an appreciation of "normal"?

I’m not sure. The highly selective local private school achieves 90% 7+ in English and maths so that’s always seen as the benchmark for paid education.

I’d always assumed the gap between the non-selective private school and best state schools was less than it appears to be.

I'd say they've got a high ability cohort, hence getting an A8 above average, but 'just' a good P8, as the kids aren't getting higher than their expected grades based on KS2 SATs in more than a couple of subjects on average. Could be due to putting the highest ability students into intervention for 8s and 9s or putting everything into the 5s to get 6s and 7s. Or there's a very diverse population, so there are a large number of community language GCSEs at 9, plus Grade 6+ Dance/Speech/Drama and Music done taken either inside or outside school, which brings the averages up.

I'd expect the FSM and Pupil Premium rates to be low.

They look good to me. I was horrified at how low national attainment was/is when researching schools for the first time years ago, I'm not sure if I'm naive or if we as a country are just lacking aspiration and letting our young people down, but I just think it's appalling how many children under perform and how we just don't seem to care.

I would think they were good results and would be happy if my kids went there.

National attainment is decided each year. It's pretty fixed.

I’ve gone down a rabbit hole. Look at this poor school. Even high previous attainers aren’t passing maths/English GCSEs!
www.compare-school-performance.service.gov.uk/school/136401/the-hastings-academy/secondary/results-by-pupil-characteristics?accordionstate=1

I’d always assumed the gap between the non-selective private school and best state schools was less than it appears to be.

Then I am afraid you are a bit naive @Treetops719. If it was possible to gain the toppest of top results in a state school for free, why would anyone shell out £15-£25k a year for private education? Of course you get a better outcome. For the reasons I and others have detailed above. I find it hard to believe that anyone is surprised at this.

Nationally, fewer than 20% gain 7+ in maths alone, so for one school to post a figure of 70% shows they have some very bright pupils or excellent progress, or both.

Dw tho @Rosienose the state school you are quoting has very good results, above average in all areas.

@clary , you are being disingenuous.

The national profile of grades is set by the exam boards. The "pass mark" for any individual subject is determined after the papers are marked, so that a proportion pass and the rest fail. It is literally impossible for everyone to pass. Failure is baked into the system.

The outcome for individual schools is dependent on the profile of their students as much as the quality of their teaching and is (imperfectly) measured by Progress 8. Private schools don't have Progress 8 scores so it is impossible to measure how good they are compared to state schools.

Spending £££ on selective private schooling guarantees some immunity from having to rub shoulders with children who are destined to get low grades, but there is no proof that it buys better grades than could be achieved by the same children at a good state school.

Yes I agree that the bright DC at the private school could have achieved good grades at a state school. I never said otherwise. And I also understand how the exam system works.

But having a class of 15 rather than 32, having poor behaviour managed out, having fewer students with SEN, because they can be refused as "not suitable for this school", all students having engaged parents and support at home, from help with homework to ability to buy books and provide a safe space for study, must lead to better outcomes for the DC in those classes.

Yes of course state school parents can be supportive and have a positive view of education (I do!) and provide resources as needed. And I would hope that my individual DC did as well or just about as well in their state school as they would have done in a private school. But overall the outcomes are bound to be better.

"But having a class of 15 rather than 32, having poor behaviour managed out, having fewer students with SEN, because they can be refused as "not suitable for this school", all students having engaged parents and support at home, from help with homework to ability to buy books and provide a safe space for study, must lead to better outcomes for the DC in those classes."

Of course. In an ideal world you would want every school to have an identical intake profile. That is why the 20% VAT on private schools is justified - when parents buy exclusivity for their own children, they are negatively impacting their local state schools, by depriving them of the positive influence those children would have on their school population and results.

Do you understand the concept of comprehensive schools?

I’d bite their hands off to get my kids a place! My two local secondaries have 11% pass rate and the better school 18% pass rate. I think it depends on your other options, is this the best of a bad bunch or this there a better option?

They are already penalised for this by still paying for state education they don’t use at point of need.

Many countries give parents income tax relief if they use private schools. Nowhere else taxes them.

Out of interest, are there any countries who give non-parents tax relief for the state schooling that they do not use?

This is such a silly argument and I can't believe people still trot it out. The purpose of state education is to produce a populace with a decent universal standard of compulsory education, which is of benefit to everyone, regardless of whether or not they or their children directly use the service.

No, they are paying the same as everyone else for state education because they are just as entitled to use it as anyone else.

The VAT helps to compensate for the damage they do to it.