How smart do you need to be to pass 11+

[Mumofgirls12341]

My 9 year old is in year 5 and preparing for 11+ and I was just wondering how smart does a child actually need to be in order to secure a place? We’re aiming at London super selectives Latymer, HBS and Woodford County Girls School.

DD has always been exceeding/greater depth since reception but I wouldn’t say she is exceptionally bright - does she have a decent shot? I have heard of people saying it’s almost impossible to get into these schools so any advice would be greatly appreciated.

Lots of people will be scared off Mumsnet by the grammar police. e.g. If my dyslexic daughter becomes a parent she wouldn't last 5 minutes before someone would pick her up on her SPaG.

They could just read?

The picture I am painting is indeed of parents who do not prioritise education in the same way as others.

This has an impact on the child and their future, and in turn impacts wider society (IMO and this is a different discussion).

It seems ridiculous though, when there are steps that could easily be taken to remediate this.

Just imagine.
You go on a forum, the first time you post some bitchy people pick you up on your SPaG.
Which is more likely, you
a) carry on posting
b) decide not to post but carry on reading
c) decide this forum is not for you
Many will decide 'c'.

As I said you don't know what you don't know. I am pretty well informed, but I only recently discovered that Attendance Allowance isn't means tested. I'd never looked because it literally hadn't crossed my mind that it would be available to all.

I've never heard of Woodford County being called a super selective before.

The kids that I know know who've got into Latymer / Woodford County are on the whole bright but have also had a lot of tutoring. I know of a couple of kids at Latymer who are exceptionally bright and just went over past papers at home.

But there is no solution to this (and I'm not sure there should be a solution) - people have vastly different attitudes and priorities and they have free choice. Testing the whole population for natural brightness and then taking bright kids away from their not-too-ambitious parents to educate in communal settings is not an option 😁 And for grammars, parents HAVE to be involved all the way through as HW workload is massive. You can't just force it on people who are not interested enough to google or read MN.

The Germans base their selection on in-school tests and teachers' recommendations but people are not happy with this either! I guess people are never happy 😂

I'm scared to imagine how people cope in real life then if they're so hyper sensitive. I hear some younger generation are, but then grammars would probably not be a good fit for them and their children as it's not living in a ball of cotton wool. But then life generally isn't... oh well what can I say.

In the old grammar system, all students sat for the tests in their classrooms and no prep was needed.

IF we think grammar schools should exist, then this would be the most equitable way.

It is not equitiable to get rid of grammars in lots of areas, keep a grammar system in other areas, keep a half-baked super selective grammar system in other areas where only those in the know do prep and apply for the tests.

and I would argue that it's not that some people "aren't interested" it's just they do not know that grammars are even a thing as they are not spoken about. I am not even sure how your suggestion that these parents should "go to MumsNet" to find out about them would work in these cases.

But England has a relatively rigid class system, "compartmentalisation" of education just reflects this simple fact - "common people" should not be able to cross the boundaries easily (it's not my opinion in any way, it's just my observation of how the system works). Education won't change unless the society structure changes and it usually takes a revolution. Until then, the most active and ambitious from the "plebs" will just have to keep jumping through the hoops all the time to prove to the "old elites" they are capable to become the "managerial elites" for them. That's what the current education system is designed for.

It's unfair and deplorable, I agree, but it is what it is in any class system.

You can't seriously say it's too difficult to type mumsnet into your browser and click on Education section 🤦‍♀️

Do a free trial of atom learning.

You can put in a target school and it will pitch your child against the scores of others to see how your child compares.

The scores of papers are misleading.

If it's a hard paper, the mark will be lowered and an easier paper will have a higher mark.

Crudely speaking the schools will start from the top and take kids from there.

It's a competition so it's about how the others are doing too. Atom will very quickly tell you where your child is at. Aim for 125 scores as a minimum.

I agree with this to a certain degree; however, despite the ss and grammars in our area saying that the exams are based on national curriculum that all state school children are taught, privately they admit that they know it isn't- the state schools haven't even covered a lot of the material by the time the exams sit, so if you havent done prep to learn significant material at home the first time you might see it is in the exam! So the system relies on parents knowing what is needed by doing research on schools and curriculum long before the exams and then ensuring their children access it by whatever means they have at their disposal. So, imo, it comes down to the parents. I didn't go through this schooling system so had to do a LOT of work and prep to facilitate my DC accessing the ss they now attend. Yes, they are bright, but needed a lot of parental insight and facilitation to get them to the table in the first place.

Yes this is how it was when I was prepping for secondary school. Every single child took the same practice papers in year 6 for the same period of time.

we came in one day and did what seemed like just another practice paper.

in the playground later rumours started that we had just done “the real thing”. Absolutely no one was tutored so the “right “ people got the grammar places as it was a level playing field.

Todays system is completely monetised and it’s all wrong.

As I think I mentioned earlier, we sent our daughter the local comp and avoided the 11+ system. In total she has 13 GCSEs and 11 of them are grade 9. To think she may not have got into one of these grammars simply because she wasn’t taught how to game their style of entrance paper is insane.

They don't lose marks for age but younger children gain marks in the age standardised scores .
One thing I don't like about the Grammar system is they aren't particularly forthright about how many kids from catchment get in and how many out of area get in.Also you don't get to know the scores or anything in our area.I think the Education board are looking into Grammars being a bit more transparent.

I vaguely knew about Grammars as my friend teaches in one and her DC went there so I asked her and then did some research.
Very few of DD's friends Mums had any idea that it was an option/how to go about it etc as The Grammars are in another town.

This I really worry about as mine is November born. Currently Y5, she's just started tutoring. Bright but not a genius. V good at VR and NVR but does less well in the SPAG and maths. So I think will be borderline and those few marks will make a big difference.

why would they think to do this? what are they supposed to be looking for? most ppl do not seek info from 2000s style asynchronous discussion forums

This 💯

It is not about smart so much as about speed and technique. Smart means coming up with innovative solutions, creative thinking, logic. 11+ tests are not IQ tests.

For Tiffin girls they published it at Right to know website

The 11plus is a very specific type of test.
Similar to the way some people just can’t grasp the ways IQ tests ask questions, despite the fact they actually might be intelligent people. But they lack a certain skill set for certain things.

Plenty of children tutored fail the 11plus, so it’s not as simple as being tutored will get you through it. It really does depend on the way a persons brain works as to whether they will grasp the concepts of the test.

No it isn’t, but if you HAVE been tutored you will understand the style the questions are delivered in and would have been taught how you’re expected to answer. An untutored child will always be at a disadvantage from that perspective.

Majority of kids who passed 11+ where we are (not London) were largely already in private schools and/or seemed to be practicing constantly from year 5 or even beforehand tbh. It's getting used to the style of questions and learning how to manage time. I was surprised that even the brightest kids from my son's school barely got the requisite marks. She sounds like she's in with a shot and has practiced lots already and there's time yet so definitely worth a try.

True, but it still shows whether you have that type of brain. You won’t know unless you try.
I passed mine in 1994.