Music lessons are a waste of time for most kids

[Baldrick23]

I don't mean this too horribly but when I hear that Jonny is a brilliant musician and has grade 7 aged 14 and might go to music school I die a bit inside.

So Im shaped by personal experience here. I did all the grades on the cello by 12 and was a decent cellist and a music scholar. But what parents need to understand is a couple of things. Unless you have grade eight at about 8 (or very soon after starting if later) then you aren't going to be a concert soloist. Even if you do you probably aren't going to be a concert soloist. I wouldn't even have probably made it to be a decent cellist in an orchestra earning 30k for a tricky life touring and barely able to afford anything. So everyone should remenber music is just for fun. None of the kids are going to make it. Just find out how talented you need to be "just" to be a music teacher at a school.

I cant say this out loud at the school gate so I'm saying it here!

Oh and if they love sport get them private 1 to 1 coaching even if they arent the next messi. Just as worthwhile. Forcing talentless musicians to scrape their way humourlessly to grade 2 is awful for everyone involved

Yes, I read your claim about piano conservatoire entry with interest as every pianist I know who auditioned for JD had to play at least grade 8 pieces - the youngest was 9.

What they say about grade 5 piano on their web sites is a joke 😂 Piano department is notoriously competitive, probably even more than strings as it's not orchestral.

Taking languages is a waste of time because almost nobody becomes a UN translator.

Going to the gym is a waste of time because almost nobody becomes Mrs Universe.

Learning to cook well is a waste of time because almost nobody becomes a Michelin chef.

Having ballet lessons is a waste of time because almost nobody becomes a prima ballerina.

Doing an English literature degree is a waste of time because almost nobody becomes a successful author.

Repeat for literally everything in the world.

I don't think grade system is any measure of talent - you can learn the technique to a decent level just by practising an hour every day and you can also train for aural. Assessment of musicality is only a minor part of grade exam.
So yes, grades are more about dedication and perseverance.

Real talent is an entirely different thing and you cannot really "exam assess" it as the interpretation, for example, is unique. The ability to
Interpret is the primarily sign of talent but they grades don't assess it - and shouldn't really :)

What a sad world if people / children are discouraged from learning anything new or developing skills, or creating any kind of art if it isn’t going to make them money.

I played and sang through my whole childhood and teens. I was never going to be a brilliant pianist but I’m so grateful that I got those opportunities to learn and enjoy something as personally fulfilling as music.

I have continued to sing at a high standard throughout my adult life. I wouldn’t give it up for anything. And I’ve never sought to make a living from it.

Most parents I come across get their kids doing piano or whatever becasue they think it will ‘be good for them’, not because the kids love it or even like it in a lot of cases. At least 2 people have told me of the constant battle to get their kids to lessons and to make them practice.

To play brass instruments you need your adult front teeth really. You can probably start the trumpet or cornet at 6 if you’ve got the teeth (which not all do) and possibly a plastic trombone. But it would be a bad idea to start a 6 year old on the horn or tuba and even if you did you would never reach grade 8 standard on any of these by 8. The 8year olds at grade 8 on piano or strings started learning at 3 or 4, not 6.

Same story for woodwind as you need physical size to stretch to reach the keys and to make the oboe and bassoon embouchure. Recorder can be started early I guess and then move to the others later.

As another poster has said, the majority of those through to the first round on bbc young musician this year on woodwind/brass/percussion started their instruments at 8/9/10 - I.e late primary.

I played one of these instruments professionally, which I started at 10. All of my peers started at similar age. It is absolutely untrue to suggest that a career as a musician isn’t open to you if you haven’t achieved grade 8 by 8, which is what OP suggest. It is very instrument dependent.

I suppose conservatoires know what they are doing 🤷‍♀️
Horns started with everyone else at 6, they just progress slightly slower.

@Ubertomusic i don’t know if it’s intentional but your posts are coming across quite aggressively.

Im a former professional musician, my husband is a professional musician and teaches at one of the London conservatoires and its junior department (possibly the most prestigious one if relevant). There are only a handful of 8 year olds at there and for what it’s worth they aren’t all grade 8 level - for the youngest ones they look for musicality and potential above achievement.

I agree with you that grades don’t necessarily measure talent but at the same time there is no way an 8 year old can reach grade 8 level without some level
of natural aptitude or ability for the instrument on top of significant parental involvement.

As an adult I've discovered the joy of doing a hobby I am bad at but really enjoy (actually a sport not music but the same principle). It makes a big difference to my quality of life even though I'm rubbish at it. As long as my kids are trying at their hobbies I am happy to support them regardless of whether they're any good at it. One of my children came last in a hobby competition a little while ago but I was really proud of him because taking part in the event involved a lot of hanging around waiting for his turn which he coped with really well even though sitting still and waiting is not something he's normally very good at. So the transferable skills are really valuable.
It has taken a bit of a change of mindset for me as a natural perfectionist though!

I know that junior Guildhall does this - it is an absolutely terrible idea and completely unnecessary.

It would be much better for the kids to start on trumpet or corner or tenor horn and move to horn when they are strong enough to physically support the instrument.

There are no benefits to be gained from starting it too young and lots of potential downsides. In Guildhall’s case it is done to balance their ensembles and several horn players have tried to get them to change it. This is something I know a lot about - happy to discuss further by DM if you like.

My husband has made a living as a musician and composer. He can't read music and didn't learn any music theory really until his music therapy masters in his mid 40s. He's released several albums on major labels, toured the world and also composed scores for a large number of theatre productions.

He's never done any grades and did most of his musical skill development as an adult after not enjoying sporadic childhood music lessons.

Learning music - even just the basics - for me is a life skill like swimming or riding a bike. It helps you understand the world on a different level, with a richness you'd otherwise be locked out of. Playing and enjoying music socially has bwen a great source of pleasure. I'm an absolute amateur but it means a lot to me. There's loads of different ways for music to be meaningful in your life beyond 'career as concert musician'

It's factual. I know a fair few professional musicians (including some very successful ones) and none of them were grade 8 at age 8. Most of them started learning an instrument at age 8.

You are mistaken re. aggression, but I am speaking from experience of having DC through a "kindergarten" programme and to JD at a London conservatoire - and my experience is just very different to what you say. Half of DC's cohort auditioned from "kindergarten" to JD at 10, all strings had to play grade 8 or "at grade 8 standard" meaning advanced technique even if lower grade pieces 🤷‍♀️ If I remember correctly, DC played grade 7 pieces at age 10 for RCM your husband is probably teaching at - and didn't get an offer, but got another one with grade 8 pieces half a year later. Pretty much everyone I know is doing more or less the same level and it's considered normal. DC is in no way exceptionally talented, rather average or slightly below our JD cohort.

All brass players at the conservatoire kindergarten have been learning since 6, despite the teeth etc. Trombones were plastic for maybe a year.

That other people's experience is not the same as yours doesn't mean they are aggressive. It's just simple facts.

BBC Young Musicians are usually exceptionally talented so it doesn't matter that much when they started, or "politically correct choices" so it's no indication either. We know some of them so again I'm speaking from experience.

well playing at that level is for musical geniuses. Hopefully for kids who innately enjoy making music. Because there will be a lot of practice need to achieve such a level of playing at such a young age, they sound like prodigies. Out of curiosity, how many hours a week / day did you dc practice their instrument at age 8-10?

Because it is all about the practice. No one magically gets to that level - preteen, teen or adult.

DC is not a horn player so I have no question on this, but I appreciate your offering of advice. The auditions DC did were on the violin - grade 7 was not enough for JD.
Pianists I know started much later than 3 or 4 but they practise a couple of hours a day hence the result.

So learning to play an instrument is only worthwhile if it results in a profitable career? - what total nonsense.

I can play several instruments not very well at all - but well enough to have a lot of fun.

I can also cook but dont make a living out of it.

Why is something only worthwhile if it results in profit?

I guess I was referring to the bluntness and emoji use, not the content, but appreciate it’s hard to judge tone on these.

As you say, BBC young musicians are exceptionally talented, which goes to show that it doesn’t hold you back to start later, particularly on woodwind and brass.

Re the JD entrance - you’re right about where Dh teaches. Not on violin but the other instrument you referred to as being particularly competitive. They have accepted people who have been below grade 8 standard at audition but have performed well in other ways.

Havent RTWT as I can't be bothered, but I disagree, vehemently disagree. I have a Piano diploma and Gr8 in a different instrument. I work in a completely unrelated field, music was never going to be my career but I absolutely loved it.

Studying music teaches you tons of stuff including tenacity and discipline. Going to the county music orchestra on Saturdays on the bus in the middle of winter requires both of those things. It teaches you teamwork, opens your world up a bit as you meet kids you'd never meet at secondary school. Brings travel opportunities and all manner of other benefits.

I've made friends through music all my life - uni orchestra, community orchestra, etc., etc.. I never wanted to study music at uni but that doesn't make it worthless.

Mine is lazy, so not every day and never ever more than an hour even though it's badly needed for the violin. But we also have to juggle three instruments and choristers so lots of music making and developing aural/inner hearing, but very patchy practice if you look at each instrument.

DC's fellow violinists and pianists practised between one and two hours a day at that age, but usually had only two instruments.

I'm typing in haste so probably that's why the bluntness, sorry.

I also know children who were accepted below grade 8, by coincidence they happen to be private pupils of some JD teachers 😄 Anyway, I think we agreed on the point that talent is not measured by grades.

Getting back to the OP - a successful soloist career is a combination of really exceptional talent, extremely hard work and stamina in the very long run, strong personality and charisma, very pushy parents, connections, sacrifices, a bit of luck - and God's blessing.

There are too many factors for anyone to be planning on that 😄 Although some JD parents clearly have these ambitions.

2 hours practice when they're only 8 - Unless the child is independently hyper focused on their instrument that is not necessarily in the best interest of the child. Sure some kids will be hype focused, often twice exceptional with profound talent, but in the case of most this sounds like tiger parenting.

Some of JD string players are home schooled/part schooled to allow time for practice. That's if the parents want to "raise a soloist".

Who knows what is in the best interest of the child - maybe just doing hours of sports outdoors, but not everyone does it either.

TBH I think that the kids who get in with the early grade 8s are often the ones who are less musical and have been drilled since they were in nappies and need the advanced level to get into the upper levels of JD. However there is also room for the really musical kids who started later (and therefore may not have realised their full potential) to get in playing at a lower standard but with great musicality. The former can be taught (and its what they're going to JD to do after all) the latter cannot so if a JD finds it they are likely to want to nurture it.

I say this as the mother of a DD who was at a JD for a very competitive instrument and put up two academic year groups whilst there.She was only Grade 5 at 10 (having only started learning 2 years before) but what she could do with a Grade 5 piece was quite outstanding. They spotted the potential and 18 months later she was Grade 8. Girl the year below her playing at a similar level got an MDF funded place to specialist school - again she was exceptionally musical despite not being quite there on her technique.

I think that JD audition panels need to be given more credit for seeing through the flash than some posters are giving them.

Exactly @Londonmummy66 - you’re absolutely right (at least for the JD where DH teaches).