Music lessons are a waste of time for most kids

[Baldrick23]

I don't mean this too horribly but when I hear that Jonny is a brilliant musician and has grade 7 aged 14 and might go to music school I die a bit inside.

So Im shaped by personal experience here. I did all the grades on the cello by 12 and was a decent cellist and a music scholar. But what parents need to understand is a couple of things. Unless you have grade eight at about 8 (or very soon after starting if later) then you aren't going to be a concert soloist. Even if you do you probably aren't going to be a concert soloist. I wouldn't even have probably made it to be a decent cellist in an orchestra earning 30k for a tricky life touring and barely able to afford anything. So everyone should remenber music is just for fun. None of the kids are going to make it. Just find out how talented you need to be "just" to be a music teacher at a school.

I cant say this out loud at the school gate so I'm saying it here!

Oh and if they love sport get them private 1 to 1 coaching even if they arent the next messi. Just as worthwhile. Forcing talentless musicians to scrape their way humourlessly to grade 2 is awful for everyone involved

Do children learn a musical instrument because they want to be a concert soloist? All my kids just wanted to play the instrument they chose and don't have a particular end goal in mind.

Musical instrument lessons and dance classes aren't supposed to be on-the-job training, they are supposed to be just a fun extra-curricular activity like any other. If children don't much enjoy it, then they stop after a while. If they do enjoy it, then they carry on for as long as they want to.

Almost all of them will just be doing it recreationally, and will enjoy it at that level, having no interest in a career as an orchestral violinist or professional dancer. A very small handful will show an exceptional talent and desire to pursue it to a higher level.

Who cares which is which? As a parent, you are just paying for your kid to have a fun hobby. What does it matter whether they show talent at it or not? Nobody sends their child to Cubs or Brownies with the expectation of a career at the end of it.

I think it’s the thread title that has provoked most of these responses OP -
of course music lessons aren’t a waste of time for all the reasons people say.

Also - I’m a former classical musician and most of my friends are musicians. Many of them went to specialist music schools. A couple are concerto soloists. None of them had grade 8 by 8 and many hadn’t even started at that age. As you will know, you can start strings and piano young but most woodwind and brass instruments can’t be properly learned until late primary or later. I started my instrument at 10, did grade 8 at 14, was in NYO, had scholarships to all the major conservatoires and had an orchestral job.

You are absolutely right though that for such a demanding profession which requires so much talent and commitment from a young age, even the top orchestral
jobs are really poorly paid. It is a sad fact that our culture doesn’t value classical music the way eg Germany does.

Fortunately the vast vast majority of kids (and the adults who persevere) do it for love, not for career prospects or money. My involvement in music has been the greatest joy of my life, even though I no longer play professionally. My children are learning - one is extremely musical, the other less so - and it is so rewarding seeing them begin their own musical journeys.

This is interesting, but I suppose they have to be STEM professionals first and not doing grade 8 by 8, these are two very different childhoods 😄

JDs are not lacking applicants at all, even oboes received lots of applications this year.

Maybe at pro level fewer people are interested as you can't earn decent living doing classical music.

I know quite a few children who achieved grade 8 by 8 or 9. Are you calling them all "abnormal"? That's pretty wild.

Ahaha love it! Of course many children hate practising and of course MN parents won't admit it. But your OP is self contradicting - it's mostly JD parents think about solo career for their children, but their offspring DO have grade 8 by 8 😂

I don't think MC parents at local music schools have such ambitions. There is no money in music and MC usually value moneyed careers.

Surely they are outliers at least @Ubertomusic ?

On that note, I did watch the BBC Young Musician audition programmes this week - most of the children featured there didn't have grade 8 by 8 - suspect that's a figure heavily concentrated in the 'strings' 'piano' end of things.

Several of the woodwind/brass/percussion finalists only started their instruments at 8, 9 or 10 (I noticed, because DD2 plays in orchestras or is at school with several of them and because she's such a late starter herself)

I'm assuming they have a shot at a career in music of some type if they want it, even if DD doesn't!

Depends on your definition of “normal”, but the average child, and the average child who has music lessons, wouldn’t achieve grade 8 by age 8, so I wouldn’t say this is normal.

To be grade 8 by 8 the child would need to be very talented and have had considerable parental involvement and investment beyond the average. To suggest that this is commonplace is unrealistic, even if you do know “quite a few” in this position. But sorry for derailing the thread OP!

Finally one honest post 👏

Playing an instrument uses your brain in a unique way so it helps with other stuff. It's also fun and gives them an appreciation of how hard it is to play music well.

My kids all have a specific hobby that we all put alot of time and money into. You could look at me at the football club and think she thinks her child will be the next Messi but I assure you I do not. I put time and energy into my kids hobbies because they are important to them. I also think having a sport or a hobby can carry you through your teenage years, giving a social outlet and a positive focus.

Most people know that there kids aren't going to make money from their hobbies.

I just don't get the current trend that nothing is worth doing unless its worth it i terms of money at the end of the day. The thin I have hated the most in my life was my high flying very well paid city job. Nothing has ever made me feel as bad as that Sunday evening/Monday morning feeling of "Oh shit I have to go to work tomorrow".

Music on the other hand was the thing that got me through an abusive childhood and has been a means of making friends since I left home at 18 - I'm still performing at an amateur level 50 years after starting lessons.

@Londonmummy66 I suspect the current trend to look at the value of degrees - and thus everything else - in terms of eventual average salary doesn't help.

But yes, I cannot think of anything that is less often a waste than music lessons for a child that enjoys them - and yours is an excellent example of why.

Yeah I would say that was abnormal.

Wow what a load of narrow minded rubbish. I had singing and woodwind lessons. I love singing in a choir as an adult and my skills in lessons help me. I only went to grade 3 woodwind but it is done more I probably would play in an orchestra now. Music is for enjoyment not because you are going to be a professional musician. Should I tell my tall daughter to give up on ballet because she isn't going to be a prima ballerina!

How do you mean wind and brass can't be properly learned until late primary? JDs teach them from age 6 and by late primary some kids pass grade 6-8. Is this not "proper learning" for you? 🤔

Now this is just plain rude.

@Ubertomusic I suspect there aren't a VAST number of Grade 8 bassoons at the end of primary - DD got into the NCO playing grade 6 pieces at 12! She still can't play a proper full-size now..

My DS has just started studying at a conservatoire. He's grade 8 in 2 instruments, composes and produces and masters music. He is passionate but realistic. He has a plan B (which was nearly his plan A) ready if plan A doesn't work out. At the end of his degree he will have a degree plus all of the diligence, work ethic and collaboration skills that music has given him. More importantly he will have spent 4 years of his life doing something that makes him happy every day. I can't think of a better way to spend 4 years of his life

I'm not too sure. In strings department pretty much everyone who had a chance to continue was grade 8 by 10-11, diploma was outliers but there was one or two (not necessarily the most talented).

In brass, grade 6 by 10 was normal and actually low expectation level, some did grade 8. In brass it depends on the instrument, horns are considered more difficult.

That's I think 40-50 children I know very well having watched their progress for a few years. And this is a non-selective intake so some were just not very musical. Maybe five from the cohort are exceptionally talented, standing out a mile - this doesn't mean they want or have a chance to become soloists.

Agreed! I predict compulsory music at school will be phased out within 10 years. When most scrape by in literacy and numeracy; to devote 4 hrs a month x 5 yrs to something absolutely alien and pointless to 99% of year 7s is obscene.

Music grades are not the be-all and end-all. In any case, they are easier now than they were years ago. When I was taking piano exams years ago, you had to play four pieces at grades 6 and 7 and the B piece at grade 8 was a complete three movement sonata. In addition to this, there were a huge amount of scales and arpeggios and the aural tests were more difficult. This is in common with exams in general - when I was a student in the eighties a 2:2 was considered a good degree and was what most people achieved. 2:1s were not very common and firsts were a rarity. These days, the results are very different and today's 2:1s are the equivalent of our 2:2s. It would have been much much more difficult for eight year olds to achieve grade 8. Even so, I think it is still a rarity in spite of Ubertomusic's claims to the contrary. At the junior department my piano pupil now attends (obviously not my piano pupil any longer), which is part of the best conservatoire in the country, the expectation is that grade 5 with distinction is attained by the age of ten and grade 8 with distinction by sixteen, although, of course, many have reached these goals at a younger age. My pupil was playing diploma standard music before he started there last year at the age of fifteen.

Bassoons are rare of course. As well as tubas at this age and actually I haven't seen lots of percussionists in NCO either.

I would say offering music lessons to small children then seeing how much they enjoy the subject, and encouraging them accordingly could only be a good thing. If it's not forced.

My DH is a musician and he valued having guitar tuition from a young age. He worked as a music teacher in a college and I think if you have a good teacher, it can really inspire you. Also then that person could go on to be a good teacher as well to others and inspire them.

But of course it's not for everyone. Only people that are really passionate need apply.

To assume you'll make bank as a musician full time is no different to hoping you'll be a full time employed actor. People don't need grade whatever in violin to produce a million selling pop song for example either.

So I do get where you're coming from to an extent.