Music lessons are a waste of time for most kids

[Baldrick23]

I don't mean this too horribly but when I hear that Jonny is a brilliant musician and has grade 7 aged 14 and might go to music school I die a bit inside.

So Im shaped by personal experience here. I did all the grades on the cello by 12 and was a decent cellist and a music scholar. But what parents need to understand is a couple of things. Unless you have grade eight at about 8 (or very soon after starting if later) then you aren't going to be a concert soloist. Even if you do you probably aren't going to be a concert soloist. I wouldn't even have probably made it to be a decent cellist in an orchestra earning 30k for a tricky life touring and barely able to afford anything. So everyone should remenber music is just for fun. None of the kids are going to make it. Just find out how talented you need to be "just" to be a music teacher at a school.

I cant say this out loud at the school gate so I'm saying it here!

Oh and if they love sport get them private 1 to 1 coaching even if they arent the next messi. Just as worthwhile. Forcing talentless musicians to scrape their way humourlessly to grade 2 is awful for everyone involved

*and don't belittle other professions, to make your point op. It is comparing apples and oranges.

The way you talk about the kid is also not really right. Ok according to you he's OK but not great. Are you the world expert on violin? Will you be sitting in the jury? If the kid is at the stage of going in an exam he probably might have gotten some feedback already or listened and compared himself to others on par. If not, well, then that's his delusion and having dreams and trying is not something to be looked down at. He might enjoy playing and become a teacher. You sound really judgemental and puritan.

we don't only need concert pianists around but also the local lady at the church, and the world is a more musical and beautiful place because they didn't think like you.

Not if they enjoy it OP! Would you tell a child playing football is a waste of time, as they likely won't become a professional footballer? Doubt it!

When I was growing up we were told music would be useful if we wanted to be primary school teachers.
I now live in a country where music is not a school subject at all and the country still functions very well.

@Ubertomusic, I have a very good idea what musicality and musicianship are. I have been living it my entire life. I have also been instilling it in others for the past forty years. I am perfectly well aware that perfect pitch is not the be-all and end-all and know some excellent musicians who do not have it. I find, though, that those musicians who trot out the old chestnut that it is not necessary to have perfect pitch in order to be a musician are the people who are jealous that they do not have it. As I said in my first post about it, I did not even realise l had it until I was sixteen. I thought all trained musicians had it. It is useful to have, though, especially as a strings player. What l would really like to know is why you feel it necessary to keep goading people on this thread, especially those of us who are professional musicians. A lot of your views are very ill-informed in any case.

I wasn't goading you, you tagged me in your post. I didn't comment on any of your previous long posts even though parts of them were sneering 🤷‍♀️

I happen to know a thing or two about Shostakovich so I thought I was allowed to comment on his well known bio? 🤔

Give your kids the choice. Some enjoy it, some don't but they wouldn't know if they don't have a go.

Well I agree with the op. Since you think like this then perhaps you, like me, had pushy parents? (Or in my case, a pushy mother.)

I was forced to play the violin for years. Total waste of time. Never liked it as an instrument. Found it prissy and posh as a child. Made me stand out like a sore thumb in secondary. Thankfully, I wasn’t bullied for it, but I could have been. Why oh why did I suffer through it? Miss lessons for it. Have to spend hours practising. No idea.

On the other hand, I really liked playing the piano. That all said, I’ve forgotten it all now and don’t play anything. I agree the musician’s life is generally very poorly paid. But I suppose to people who love their instrument, it’s worth it, for it’s a vocation. And that probably explains it all. Same as for artists and actors.

What a cynical way to look at the arts and arts education.

1. You don't need to be grade 8 age 8 to end up being a professional musician. In fact some kids who are pushed through grades at a rapid pace miss the nuances of creative expression. You can have two kids the same age on the same instrument and one is grade 3 and the other is grade 7 and the child who is grade 3 could be a better musician. Grades mean nothing in the end, they're just markers.
2. Equally, like sport, it so depends on size of the their hands for some, or when they get their adult teeth for others, etc.
3. Just because you don't become a concert soloist, doesn't mean you won't have great job opportunities in the arts and learning an instrument or singing in a choir will enhance your knowledge in many ways.
4. Arts education teaches much more than just becoming a concert soloist and those skills are transferable to many professions. Creativity, collaboration, teamwork, discipline are needed in nearly every job.

I feel this across all art forms not just music. What is gained is far greater than what isn't in terms of results.

I don't think anyone has said that kids should be forced to learn an instrument. What we've said is that they should have the chance to and that doing so isn't pointless.

Statistically, you're probably right. There are a lot of good violinists out there and age-wise he's behind a fair few of them. He'd have a better chance if he played something uncommon like the bassoon or double bass.
DC2 plays/played in NCO/JD and would be hitting that level at a younger age. We are perfectly aware of the realities of a classical music career and will be encouraging them strongly to consider other careers.
On the other hand, we know another kid, mid-teens, who has done grade 8, has perfect pitch to a high degree and is set on doing music. They know they're probably going to end up as a music teacher / accompanist but they're happy with that. It's what they want to do.
I'd still say there is a point to kids taking music lessons even if they've neither the ability or inclination to do it professionally, in the same way that there's a point in the general public doing sports even if few of them make it to the olympics.

So you think every parent that is paying for music lessons want their child to be a professional musician? And every parent that pays for sports lessons wants their child to be an Olympian? That’s a bit weird OP.

We pay for music lessons because we want our child to play an instrument because I think the ability to read music and play an instrument is a lovely thing and i think there’s some evidence to show it helps with concentration and co-ordination skills.

I pay for sports lessons because it helps with my children’s fitness, team-working skills and ability to bounce back from disappointment do builds resilience.

Thats it.

My 4 DC all did 2-3 instruments and grades quite early. The ABRSM exams are quite demanding and I am convinced one of the reasons they passed the 11 plus for superselective grammars is because they could perform on the day, which they learnt to do in ABRSM exams, which are often unpredictable and require focus. Couple that with more and more successful comps and a few grammars offering music scholarships, music lessons are good.
I would also add that pretty much all their friends in their high level orchestras achieved all 9s or almost at GCSE and all A stars or almost at A level. And in their state primary a lot of the most academic kids also did music lessons, some for free as we had a scheme from the local music trust.

Also I have a friend who is a conductor and quite famous and he certainly seems to have done very well financially. So I guess the money is in conducting and film composing, if successful.

Or the Cellist Hauser who has an online presence - there seems to be an element of creating a persona to it these days. If anything, I think there is more scope now with the opportunity to self publish online.

Yes, TikTok etc have changed music landscape and business, but the average Joe online is not a classical affictionado and seems to be perfectly happy with AI generated muzak. You don't have to work hard for over 10 years to be able to write or play this stuff.

My 8yr old has just started piano lessons. I don't expect him to become a classical pianist, in fact until this thread I didn't even consider the grades and exams etc.
He's just a very sensitive and anxious boy, who doesn't enjoy sports clubs or beavers etc, but loves Taylor Swift and Ed Sheeran and I just felt he might enjoy a solo hobby where he can learn to play his favourite songs.
Sometimes, you can just do things for the enjoyment of them

This highlights the problem with many attitudes today. Why can't a kid just do something purely for enjoyment? Do we sign them up for football with the hope there's a budding Ronaldo inside? Or for Drama in the hope they'll be the next best thing in the west end? I understand your point about parents because kids don't usually express this feeling, they do something because they enjoy it, but it can be the attitude of parents who can't wait to tell everyone what their DC has achieved. I learnt the guitar at primary and all the way into high school and performed. It never led to anything after that. I am disappointed my DCs aren't interested in playing an instrument, not because I want them to be a musician but because I think learning to read music is a beautiful skill and it was a fantastic part of my education. It really broadened my learning skills - plus I got to miss half an hour of double science every week.

Not everything is about the end result. It's about the process and the journey along the way. Without arts education, especially music and and drama, there is no ensemble for the next soloist to be supported or actor to begin to stand on a stage to discover they have a talent. Just like sport. Doing these activities provides vital skills and a place of belonging for many kids in the same way that a chess club does for others. It's about so much more. But one thing it should never be about is the parents pushing the kids. That leads to breakdowns. We should just support, help them find what they enjoy and feel good at. Nothing wrong with doing grades. It provides a goal and a marker, but let them want to do the next one. If they're going to be the next David Beckham, or Meryl Steep, or Itzak Pearlman, they will need to develop their own fire within and their own drive. It certainly doesn't come from parents pushing them. They're their own little person inside from a very young age. Don't stomp on that.

Strange view. I have two boys and the younger has just started life as a Cathedral chorister and taken up piano and clarinet. He's previous done singing, theory and bit of sax. We have absolutely no expectations as regard his career - never imagined for a second he'd become a career musician! It's about the experience and enjoyment and how it enhances the rest of his education.

What is the point of doing any hobby then one could argue? I mean most will cost something, right? I think it is to build enjoyment and progress in something outside school and work to have something you can own and progress at your pace. Some kids/adults try lots of different things, others stick with a couple and get to a high level.
I actually think in this day and age with the passivity of screens and constant entertainment actual real life hobbies are more important than ever.

You will dislike some of my family, including my DD, and friends they like music AND science. 😂

You will dislike some of my family, including my DD, and friends they like music AND science.

Not sure @tarquinskeys meant that all people who love music dislike science. She personally liked missing double science, probably tongue in cheek. Doubt people often like only one and not the other. Don't most people like music anyhow, it's not really something special, it's kinda a basic human thing?

People like beat as it is indeed a neuro-physiological thing, but most people are bored witless by classical music, otherwise we wouldn't have a massive problem with empty concert halls. Tickets are cheap but people can't be bothered to go.
OP was not talking about popular music as it doesn't need hard training anyway.

Tickets are cheap but people can't be bothered to go.

In the UK at least, you can blame the deeply ingrained class system for this.

But I wasn't referring to the OP. Tickets being cheap is good but there are so many barriers to people engaging with classical music. Anyhow, there are as many musical styles as there are cultures and sub cultures and classical music is one genre among many, not more worthy than lots of others.

Why should people be bothered to go to a classical concert? Classical concerts must have been the height of excitement during the classical period, after all, there wasn't a lot of opportunity to enjoy and mingle with others in an entertainment sense in the18th century, also it was intended for the upper classes to have a naice space for people watching, gossip and networking.

With instant digital gratification of digital media, most people are losing the ability to sit through any passive cultural experience for any length of time. That's also why movies are no longer as popular. People need a constant dopamine buzz from fast moving content.

Even your phone has the potential to be more entertaining, notifications send people's brains into overdrive and trigger the release of stress hormones like cortisol. Research suggests that a text message from your favourite brand can produce as much dopamine as an orgasm (or maybe a Bach concert?). Sitting through a 3 hour classical concert is not attainable for many. I love it as I can completely switch the world off, but it's not for everyone.

This is worth a read
swarthmorephoenix.com/2023/10/26/an-education-in-classical-music-decolonizing-the-mind-of-classical-concerts-goers/

Actually the people I'm talking about like classical music, amongst the other genres of music they like, and they like learning to play it.