Music lessons are a waste of time for most kids

[Baldrick23]

I don't mean this too horribly but when I hear that Jonny is a brilliant musician and has grade 7 aged 14 and might go to music school I die a bit inside.

So Im shaped by personal experience here. I did all the grades on the cello by 12 and was a decent cellist and a music scholar. But what parents need to understand is a couple of things. Unless you have grade eight at about 8 (or very soon after starting if later) then you aren't going to be a concert soloist. Even if you do you probably aren't going to be a concert soloist. I wouldn't even have probably made it to be a decent cellist in an orchestra earning 30k for a tricky life touring and barely able to afford anything. So everyone should remenber music is just for fun. None of the kids are going to make it. Just find out how talented you need to be "just" to be a music teacher at a school.

I cant say this out loud at the school gate so I'm saying it here!

Oh and if they love sport get them private 1 to 1 coaching even if they arent the next messi. Just as worthwhile. Forcing talentless musicians to scrape their way humourlessly to grade 2 is awful for everyone involved

I don’t work at Guildhall. I never said I did.

It is clear that for whatever reason you are having difficulty understanding me. Perhaps it is my writing style and I haven’t been clear. But apology accepted.

@Frizno my DD is 6 and wants to play the guitar and ukulele.

She started on the latter.

She wants to play them because she thinks it is fun.

She has young adult cousins who play them for fun even though some of them are grade 8 in them and other instruments. I noticed when they were teens it gave them something to do rather than just stare at screens if they weren't into sport or dropped the sport they were doing.

One of the issue with teens, which my friends and acquaintances have shown, is they often just want to do very little but they all like music. So the ones who play instruments will play a song or a piece of music over and over again until they are happy with it.

I never said you worked at Guildhall. You are colleagues because you are all musicians, and they are no less professional than you. It's sad you don't understand this without me having to say it.

I’m not a professional musician anymore, as I said in an earlier post. I am in a completely different line of work now.

I don’t regard everyone who plays an instrument as a colleague, no. And I think that’s normal, not sad?!

Then surely you can't make comments about professional musicians "doing terrible things" as you are not a professional musician anymore?

Anyway, you keep contradicting yourself as you said you didn't want to engage with me further. I don't mind btw if we're discussing things productively, not throwing insults at children (and parents. and teachers) or asking who speaks what language 😁

There is a failure of logic there, even if it’s what I said, which it isn’t.

I only asked if you were a native speaker because I wanted to give you the benefit of the doubt after numerous comprehension fails in relation to my posts. If English wasn’t your first language it would have been unfair of me. And you’re quite right - I did say I wasn’t going to engage further. Have a good evening.

£10 says that DD2 is a brass band musician and she's done something like transfer from tenor horn to baritone horn or from cornet to euphonium.

Why I think this: all the piston-valved instruments are played the same way and have the music written so that the fingerings match up exactly with what the notes a written like, regardless of how big the instrument is. So soprano cornet, 3ft long and with a lowest no-valve note of Eb on a piano, that note is written as C below the staff in treble clef. Bb tuba, 18ft long, lowest no-valve note is Bb on the piano, that note is still written as C below the treble clef staff. Yes, brass band tuba parts are written in treble clef even though they are bass instruments. The whole reason for this is so that players can change instrument easily.

I loved playing in brass bands when I was younger but I can't cope with the competitive culture of contesting bands, and it's hard where I live to find a non-contesting one with a full complement of players.

ETA: it occurs to me that saxophones behave the same way. But, I stand by "brass bander" because saxophonists tend not to think of the different sax sizes as "similar instruments", but as "the same instrument in a different size". Brass band musicians think of the baritone horn as a different instrument from the tenor horn, even though they are arguably "same but different size". And the euphonium and baritone horn are not the same instrument despite being in the same register, looking nearly the same, and being played the same way: one has wider pipes than the other.

@MaidOfAle definitely sounds brassy. Loads of my son's mates are in top brass bands and he's getting quite in to listening to them.
Mine is a French horn player, recently he got paid for doing some mentoring at a youth orchestra on the tenor horn-an instrument he tried for the first time the day before 😂Brass is good for crossover.

Just chatted to a a parent of a 16 year old or so who wants to go to a conservatoire to do violin. I've heard him play. He's good -143 in grade 8 a year or so ago for the little that's worth. He's never going to get near to being a soloist and I'm not sure he would get into any of the big orchestras. He is also bright and if he went to uni could do well in sure. I just hope someone has told him the realities of a classical music career. I kind of doubt it.

I of course said nothing and said that's fantastic as it's not for me to give advice but deciding not to go to cheethams and playing music for fun (and getting lots of money off fees to an independent school) was my choice at 12/13 and despite parents loving my musical progress I'm amazed I had the clarity to see that I should not go down a music only route.

Interestingly the post talented string player I ever came across though NCO/NYO stuff I looked up recently and given her talent she has not had the sparkling career you might expect.

I still maintain that kids arent given the realities. The talent of a musician making 30k compared with the talent of someone doing IT making 30k is a joke comparison. That was my only real point, which maybe I made badly, just make sure the kids are going into music eyes fully open about he brutal competition*

*I'm referring to classical music careers I know nothing of the rest of it

If he's bright he will be able to re-train later if he wants to, or he could go into teaching, why not.

But doing IT is soooo boring and ugly 😂 quite unlike music and art.

And some (mine) are no good at IT etc. Music has always been his plan and he knows the reality of it.

@Baldrick23 that's lovely you got the choice of independent school or music school - especially since I'm sure your school had a decent musical offering for you to enjoy and then you could pick another career and play your cello on the side.

But what if - at 12 or 13 -your choice had been Chetham's or your local comp, which didn't even offer GCSE music? And Chetham's would (arguably) have got you better GCSE results in your other subjects too?

You might maybe have felt that, even if at the end you wanted a degree in medicine, maths or computer science, but loved playing too, Chetham's would have been the better choice?

That is more where my DD was coming from where she picked music school at 14- though she didn't go for Chet's.

The specialist music schools actually get quite good results compared to most 'ordinary' schools - and for a child who loves playing music, having so much of it in the day is fabulous, even if it won't make a career for her. She is so much happier.

Perhaps 'Jonny' at the school gates feels the same way? State school music is pretty grim right now - I'm really hoping it can be improved.

I’m not being serious here OP, I know you’re happy you did not pursue music etc, but the updates feel a bit like…. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=efHzGxEzDQA !!!

A boy called Dmitri Shostakovitch started formal piano lessons with his concert pianist mother aged nine and was accepted into the Paris Conservatoire aged sixteen. I wonder what happened to him ...

I began learning the piano just before my seventh birthday...I didn't know until I was sixteen that I had perfect pitch

I presume you must have had quite a musical household as well? I'd have thought seven was a bit late to develop perfect pitch without earlier exposure to music?

DP has it and I find it so interesting!

He was listening to his mother playing music, teaching pupils and giving weekly concerts since he was in utero.

@DwightDFlysenhower, my mother played the piano at about grade 5 level, as did her sister. My grandmother played the piano and church organ. I went to church from a very early age and loved singing. We had a record player and l loved it when music was played. My mother played and sang nursery rhymes and occasionally played The Parade of the Tin Soldiers, which was her party piece. It was not an exceptionally musical home by any means, but I always gravitated towards anything musical and could pick out nursery rhymes by ear on the piano from a very early age. I still find it easy to play by ear. Apparently, I was a very early talker, around six months. I don’t know if that is connected. As far said in my earlier post, I have also had varying degrees of hearing impairment from a very early age. It obviously has not held me back. I think perfect pitch is innate in any case. By the time I was eight, I was playing through every bit of music I could get my hands on, especially the hymn book. I was learning to sight read without even knowing it. I think I was a very musical child in a family where music was very much appreciated, but only to a certain extent. I was encouraged by family, music teachers and school without the pushing that has been so evident upthread. I had and have a passion and thirst for music that has always been there.
This leads me to @Ubertomusic. Yes, Shostakovich had all the advantages of a supremely musical home, but not every child of a musical parent is as musical as they are. In fact, it is often the case that they are not, which is the same for anything. An example of this is that my own mother is very mathematically gifted and thinks in terms of algebra on a regular basis. I, on the other hand, like maths, especially numbers and symmetry, but my level of mathematical understanding is very much of normal O level variety. I have certainly never found a use for Pythagoras or algebra since I left school.

Actually there are lots of musicians and artists who do IT as a day job.

I am related to some and worked with a few.

Some spend their spare time playing in bands and creating then exhibiting their art.

I've also met singers whose day job were accountant. One had managed to tour with a couple of very well known artists.

Not everyone who studies music does it to become a concert pianist you know op? Don't be so utilitarian. People can enjoy the process of reading, making and listening to music and arts and sports and other hobbies.

What?

the vast majority of child musicians will never really go anywhere with it but it’s not the point

I played violin and piano to a reasonable standard and absolutely loved playing in youth and uni orchestras and the tours we went on. I made friends I still keep today (at 46!). Right now I’m supporting my own kids by accompanying them and really enjoying it, as do they

are they going to become career musicians? No
is it still worthwhile? Hell yes

Sorry don't agree

i loved playing in the orchestra at school and joined an orchestra after school still going. Music can help kids who are quiet, lack confidence to gain the confidence and have a voice.

I loved playing in brass bands when I was younger but I can't cope with the competitive culture of contesting bands, and it's hard where I live to find a non-contesting one with a full complement of players.

This is interesting @MaidOfAle DC finds brass banding and generally all things brass, including high level/competing ones (as well as individual brass competitions) very relaxed and so much fun whilst string ensembles extremely competitive.

Yes @Violinist64 musician's children are not necessarily musical but their exposure to music is huge all the same. Shostakovitch also said his mother was a very good teacher which is not always the case with musicians (or any other professionals).
Musicality is a combination of genetic variation and upbringing in any case - perfect pitch too (again, like everything else). Pitch, for example, has its sensitive development period very early, around the same time as speech development. This was shown by comparative research of tonal languages speakers, for example.

A musician doesn't have to have a perfect pitch anyway. Music is not necessarily about hitting the right notes, it's more about emotions, human relation, and eternal things. This is why real soloists are such a rarity - most people just don't have such personality so it doesn't matter if they play all the notes perfectly, they simply have nothing to convey to the audience. Phil Cobb plays the same old Salvation Army hymns as everyone else but his playing just touches your soul.

They have to, I know. I studied art but worked in IT to make a living. It's soul crushing.
There is no spare time when you have children.