Yearly warning not to take A-level maths with less than a 7 at GCSE

[noblegiraffe]

GCSE results day and therefore A-level sign-up day is coming.

So with that in mind I just thought I'd post the table of conversions from GCSE to A-level results for maths to show that there is a strong correlation. This is because A-level Maths basically starts with a quick review of grade 8/9 GCSE algebra content and then gets more difficult. Students starting with a 7 will have to work very hard to keep up, students with a 6 often flounder.

There are sixth forms and colleges that will accept students with a 6 onto A-level maths, but from many years of experience, this is not a good experience for the student. Many will drop out and switch courses early on (and therefore not appear in the results table), but some will struggle on for 2 years and then come out with a grade that really doesn't help them with university applications.

If you take A-level maths with a 6, even if you manage to complete the course (and a lot won't), about three quarters will get a D or below, with E the most common grade.

This data is from 2019 because obviously more recent data has been screwed up by covid.

If your child is keen to do maths, but gets a 6, please consider Core Maths which is designed to be taken alongside 3 A-levels and provides supportive maths content for A-level sciences and social sciences (e.g. psychology, geography).

If your child is going to do A-level maths (particularly if they are on a 7 but also 8/9), check that they have done summer bridging work so they hit the ground running in September.

To those asking if you need maths to do physics, I would say yes. Then if you want to go up to do a degree in physics, 100% definitely yes. Maths is pretty much the language you need to learn to handle physics and this was very much my downfall. I had a terrible A-level maths teacher and could not grasp calculus at all, and he could not explain it to me. I should have found a way to work on it, but I gave up and struggled my way to a D. My university should never have let me onto a physics degree course with a D in maths, the crazy people! My DS is very apprehensive about taking maths at A-level as he is used to coasting through his GCSE with next to no revision, but realises it will be very different at A-level. Same for physics really, but I think he feels the hardest subjects are the ones most worth doing.

Yes, @CandiedPrincess I would agree about chemistry too. I did maths, physics and chemistry, DS is going to do the same, and I have warned him to expect a big leap in difficulty in all of those subjects. I had no idea of this when I was in his position, and it was such a shock, it really set me back. I want him to be prepared for it, and also not to feel any sense of failure if he does find it too hard.

I feel that very bright kids can do well at most GCSE subjects even in subjects they are not ‘naturally’ good at. A lot of it is quite structured and formulaic, and practice makes perfect. It is really not the same at A level.

I did A level physics over 30 years ago. Initially I chose English as another level, but my school forced me to do maths. Goodness I was grateful.. The maths and mechanics teaching was far better than what I got in the physics. I ended up with As in all subjects. I would not have got an A in the physics without the maths teaching. . Currently my child is studying physics and said she can’t imagine doing physics A-level without maths.

Some really interesting tables here showing how students perform at A-level if they are taking maths or maths and further maths as well.

https://x.com/mathsnot/status/1826232218760696300?s=46&t=vKGM6xpoeW3wdlaVVVagQA

Basically, students who take maths do better in a lot of subjects.

It does suggest that you should take maths if you want to take physics though. 14% of those who take physics without maths get a U (I’ve included another bit of the table so you can see the layout)

Thanks I thought as much.

She may end up scared of physics and maths and move onto chemistry psychology and music instead 🙈.

At least it will be informed....

I have just asked my daughter again about this. She is studying physics at university and I asked her about the A-levels. She felt it was not essential to do maths for chemistry A level. But it was for physics. She said it would be very difficult to understand the reasoning behind a lot of the physics formulas they use without a good grasp of maths.

I have one child for whom Maths comes easily and they love it. And another who struggles but knew it was important to do. It was astonishing seeing the difference between how they coped with it at A-level.

She felt it was not essential to do maths for chemistry A level.

I'd agree. Afaik many chemistry degrees don't require maths a level either.
But you really need it for the most interesting some degree level (and beyond) aspects of chemistry.

@noblegiraffe Slightly off topic,
but I suddenly thought of you as you're good with maths statistics!

In your experience, what percentage of people who ask for a review of maths a-level results actually get a change up?

DS missed a grade by 4 marks. College reviewed the scripts and thought it would be worth asking for a review and put the papers in order to ask for a review.

We've just heard back about the first paper and it's gone up by one mark so he's still 3 marks short.

DH thinks we should just accept it.
move on and not pay any more money to have the next paper reviewed, but I don't want to look back and wonder 'what if'...

Are there statistics or anecdotal thoughts from your career please
to do with how many people
actually get a grade increase following reviews as opposed to how many don't?

So many people on various forums that had positive results from reviews, but maybe they are more likely to comment than people who didn't?!

There has to be a grade boundary somewhere and people are always going to be 1/2/3 under and I completely get that! It's just frustrating for him to be so close and not get it...

Thank you and apologies if this is completely inappropriate!

I don't disagree with anything you said, BUT if you/your child has just finished their GCSEs with A/A* equivalents in all subjects and you suspect neurodivergence, do NOT do what I did on the advice of my parents and do subjects that you think will be useful even though you don't love them.

People with ADHD cannot focus on something they find boring, even if they want to.

My A levels would be a lot more useful if they were As and Bs in subjects I loved rather than Cs and Ds in subjects I started off indifferent to and came to hate.

The more I read on this thread, the more I suspect DS has ADHD/ASD.... He has no real enthusiasm for any subject and is just choosing the ones he's best at or feels are the most useful. He's worried that he might hate the whole thing and do badly because of this. He sees friends knowing exactly what they want to do or knowing what they have a passion for, and he doesn't feel like that at all. He's also mentioned before that he takes up things like cycling, or running or weight training, but soon loses interest and doesn't know why he can't stick to things.

Broadly I agree but my son got mostly 4,5,6 for GCSEs and ended up getting A*BB at A level, so it is possible to make a huge jump if you work very hard.

Can I ask you if your low gcse result in maths ever went against you career wise?
I got a D years ago too (tired twice more and both Ds) and now I feel I can’t put down on job applications that I’ve passed maths gcse? Despite being actually quite good a maths and doing all sorts of bookkeeping and tax related things since then?

Hang on sorry! Just reread that you actually passed gcse! Ignore me!!!!

Hi @Hoppinggreen I teach Business Studies A Level. At my school you would need 6 in both Maths and English to do either Business or Economics. Business Studies is about 25% numerical and its not particularly hard maths, they just don't give you all the info you need to work out the answer so it's not as straightforward as just remembering the correct equation and then inputting the correct figures as you would have to do one or two steps before you can use the equation. Plus it's more about interpreting the numbers into how it will impact the business. I had a student who was very able but fell apart whenever it came to a mathsy question, in his mocks there was a 20 marker essay that was maths based and he couldn't do it. He still came out with an A* for his final grade

DS got a 9 yesterday in Maths and 8,9 in Double Science. He has enrolled for Maths, Further Maths, Economics and Physics. He is quite excited to these subjects and confident but a friend who is a maths teacher has said that this is a really tough combo. My thinking is that he can always drop the FM but now I'm worrying a bit if he is overloading himself. The unis he is thinking of prefer FM if applying for Economics

@peanutcookie "tough" combinations are subjective. It was a long time ago - before the whole do 4 subjects in Y12 and stop one as AS level. I did Bio, Phys, Chem and maths. Most people would say that's a "tough" combination, however I promise you I'd have found most other subjects harder. My brain works STEM-like. You son has 8s and 9s in the subjects linked to most of those A levels. Sounds like he should enjoy the combination.

I remember being told that candidates whose results are within 1 or 2 marks of a grade boundary are automatically remarked. This was in the context of OCR A level Maths, I don't know if it's generally applied, and if it's just an arithmetical check of the marks or a full look at the student's papers.

It would have been a few years ago and also I can't remember where I heard it - either in a Maths department meeting or at an OCR meeting for teachers - but I have believed it ever since. 😔

Has anyone else heard that?

My son did this combination. He only got a C originally for GCSE maths but got either A or A* at A Level. I think they advised against it due to his maths grade, but he pushed for it. To be honest, he was probably always capable but he was lazy before sixth form. Anyway, he found these subjects fine for him, he enjoyed them and it led him to uni.

Oh well, it's all gone to pot. The college won't allow him to any A Levels even A level maths ( he got a 7).

We are looking into other options, and hopefully have one that will be a bit more accommodating.

I agree with this.

Same applies to other subjects like the sciences, although would accept 6's most sciences whereas needs a 7 for maths.

Sometimes, no amount of hard work is going to help.

There are always exceptions to the rule, but often the kindest thing you can do is not let them on the course.

@noblegiraffe and @lanthanum - thanks very much.

Once he's back from Reading, we'll sort the final choices.

If he's good at maths, it's a good combo.

@noblegiraffe - thank you for posting that bridging work document. We were given work (already done) but have no idea if is correct so this one is really useful with the answers for checking.

6 in maths is fine for psychology and economics, but it's generally recommended to take maths alongside physics. Our school likes a 7 in maths as a minimum to take physics and preferably to take maths A level as well.

Would psychology, economics and business not be a better fit?

My dd did that combination for her A levels but dropped the further maths because she didn’t see the point of doing an extra A level when she didn’t have to. She is studying economics at university
However, if your ds is driven he may as well give it a go with the four A levels