A-Levels choices - do we add maths or not?

[Wafflesandcrepes]

DD is going into year 11 and has started asking me questions about A-levels which I’m unable to answer as I’ve not been educated here in Britain.

DD wants to take Latin, History and Politics A-Levels. History is really her pet subject and has been from an early age. DD will probably want to do a history degree at university.

She thinks this combo might be a bit “basic” (her words) and is wondering whether to add maths to it.

I’m now wondering whether the history-latin-politics combo is not enough in itself. It sounds good to me!

And also if A-Levels Maths is much harder than GCSE. DD is predicted a 9 in maths but this has required quite a lot of support at home in the past.

Thank you in advance for any advice and insights.

I would say if she definitely wants to do a degree in history at university then there is nothing wrong with her 3 choices. You only need 3 A Levels to get in, so better to concentrate on fewer subjects and getting as high as possible in 3 than spending time on a 4th that she won't need for an arts / humanities degree. Maths is very difficult, and even for humanities A Levels you are expected to spend at least as much time studying outside the classroom as in it, so a 4th A Level would require another 10 hours a week study that could be spent really going for it on the other 3 or doing work experience/ volunteering etc which would be more useful.

Maths trains the brain to think logically and not jump to conclusions.

Notwithstanding @DramaLlamaBangBang very sound comments, could she start with 4 and then drop 1 if too much? Or do 'core' maths (if that is what it us called?)?

She doesn't need to decide yet, and can discuss pros and cons with prospective 6th forms when the time comes.

In the U.K. it is normal to specialise at a level.

Most people go down one of three tracks:

Maths and sciences (so some combination of maths, further maths, physics chemistry and biology)

Humanities so politics, history, classics, etc

Languages

It's fairly normal to mix languages and humanities - so for example someone might do Latin, history and economics but in general it's unusual to mix sciences and the others simply because most science degrees want maths plus at least one and preferably two sciences.

People do sometimes do combinations like biology, chemistry and geography which also hang together.

Basically a level choice is usually driven by what you need for the degree you are aiming for. Very few if any languages or humanities degrees will require maths so most people aiming for those degrees choose a levels that will support their degree.

Her suggested options are great for someone intending to go on and study history.

Maths A Level is indeed much harder than GCSE. I would suggest the only reason to take it in your daughter's case is if she really loves the subject and wants to continue it. She certainly doesn't "need" it in terms of future options.

Not all sixth forms allow students to take 4 A Levels. And I would think that combination with maths A Level would be a lot of work. Would she consider taking Core maths instead, if she was interested in pursuing mathematical study?

No need for a fourth A-level. Core maths might not be a bad idea if she enjoys maths and would like to do a bit more, but it's not really going to support those A-levels. It might be useful if she's looking at non-history-related jobs later on.

The other thing to look at is doing an EPQ (extended project qualification). You pick your own topic for that - you're marked on the research and planning process rather than the content. You can do an essay or create something. She could pick a historical topic that interests her outside the A-level syllabus, or something tangential (I know someone who researched and made a period costume - very easy to tick the research and planning boxes). It doesn't have to have relevance to what she's applying for at university, although I'm sure it helps if it does. Some universities will drop their offer a little if you've done/are doing an EPQ.

Rather than Maths, a statistics A-Level would be useful with history.

Would it? (DD took A Level history; I can't think of a single thing that used statistics) With geography, I would agree.

There is nothing basic about that combo and it makes perfect sense. Maths adds nothing to it!

I fear this 'basic' thing is the Cult of STEM.

Her a levels sound ideal for many humanity degrees ... Instead of maths... Which is hard especially if you've needed support for gcse what about a language? That adds a great dimension

I wouldn't add maths to a history, latin and politics combo. Those will be challenging enough! Unless your DD is top 0.1% super-brainy I would only recommend 4 a-levels if some of them are closely allied with a lot of overlapeg a lot of people do maths, further maths, physics plus one other subject and that's totally doable. While the existing combination will support each other I don't believe there's enough overlap to make headspace for a 4th.

I would suggest History, Latin and Maths. A politics A-Level is interesting but if she ends up pursuing a career that requires any kind of qualification in politics she'd be better of doing a taught Masters in it after her History degree, none of which require you to have a politics A-Level.

I suppose it depends what sort of history interests you - it would certainly be useful if studying large population movements or introduction of new technologies for instance. eg. public health ( https://www.rcseng.ac.uk/library-and-publications/library/blog/mapping-disease-john-snow-and-cholera/ ) or the effects of the Black Death.

If she adored maths, and was on track for a 9 with minimal homework, I'd say sure, try adding it.
But needing support in GCSE maths isn't a great indicator for Alevel. It is a serious jump up.

Her 3 choices sound excellent.

I feel this is my moment to assist!

I breezed through my GCSEs with nothing lower than an A, having taken extra language GCSEs being a language specialist school.

At A-Level, having spoken to the Head of Sixth Form for advice (a business studies teacher....) I took: Product Design; French; Statistical Maths; and Chemistry, as I wanted to be a design engineer. Looking back - I was a 16 year old with gumption!

I, like your daughter, am naturally good at maths (my dad is an accountant and my brother naturally gifted!) BUT it took me REALLY putting the work in at home to get to an A*.

For me personally, I could have perhaps coped better without adding French to the mix, a different but similar scenario to your daughter.

I was badly advised to throw in French as "a French speaking engineer would be top pick for jobs" however EVERY language teacher after the fact told me that was awful advice.... and we had many of them given our school specialism....

In the end, my dad had a sudden triple heart bypass just before my first year exams and while doing OK overall, I mentally couldn't absorb what I needed to, and on subjects that didn't naturally "come to me" I couldn't wing it. Having worked really hard at them all the entire year, I got uncharacteristic C's - not enough for a good uni and my future aspirations.

I re-sat the entire year with different subjects (cried my eyes out, my life was over) as I realised that I naturally find humanities/English a doddle without trying and so why wasn't I focusing on what I'm good at. It also meant I "career proofed" myself because life can throw you in a spin and you can't always give 110% to something.

My next focus (as the username alludes) was to become a lawyer as a career in something I'd have to mentally challenge myself to do every day seemed silly.

I took: History, psychology and English language. I got excellent grades, went on to do a law degree (so not dissimilar to history) and got a 1st. I then had my pick of training contracts as a result and have had a successful career to date. My ALevels have helped with that as firms do look at those - so depending on where she wants to be - doing well is important.

You wouldn't ask a fish to run, so get your daughter to shine at what she's naturally good at - ditch the maths! Maybe try something a lot easier but to give her a taste of something different like IT, business etc? ☺️

Well, yes, but then you could do a public health masters, a population studies degree at Southampton, or choose a social science degree with quants. You don't need A level maths for that , just a good GCSE.

They are a good combo.

I wouldn't add maths as a standalone.

If she particularly wanted to start a subject that had a mathematical element I'd do economics instead of politics.

Economics has some cross over with politics and also has the maths.

But it's not necessary and would be a choice based on interest.

Sounds great. History is a slog (my DD did it), politics sounds interesting and Latin - well bravo is all I can say!
As mentioned an EPQ can be helpful, but doesn't have to be related to her future plans. My DD did something totally unrelated to her A levels and future degree (an artefact) because she wanted to challenge herself, and the skills she learned will lend themselves to anything. An A or A star EPQ might reduce her offer by a grade, but not all universities do this. Sometimes something is worth doing for itself without it needing to lead to something.

Sounds like a very good combination and don’t think maths would add anything. It’s a big jump from gcse maths to a level and if your dd has had support to be on track for a 9, I would not choose a level.

Agree with @Piggywaspushed, specialising in public health is much better done at Masters level – and fwiw one of the best places in the world to do that is at LSHTM if your DD fancied a year in London after her under-graduate degree.

My DD had to do quite a lot of epidemiology in her Masters (which is very stats-based) and although she did maths, further maths and stats GCSEs, she didn't take it beyond that level.

I would say yes to adding maths if she is academic, ambitious and hard working. A grade 9 ar maths GCSE (even with help) is a good basis for beginning maths A-level.

Maths A-level is a truly beautiful subject, requiring hard work and logical precise thinking and clear arguments. It will complement her other A-levels and she will find the contrast (particularly when it comes to revision) a bonus.

I don’t recommend core maths for her as it is less academic (and in her words, a bit “basic”). Core maths is relevant to people who enjoy maths (but are not capable of doing well at maths A-level) or people who need more maths to complement other A-levels (eg those taking psychology or biology), but she is not in either of these categories.

If she finds maths A-level too much, she can drop it. But if she doesn’t start it, she can’t really pick it up from October onwards.

I would stick to the three that she has chosen.

As a maths teacher I would say no to adding Maths to that combo of A-levels. Those A-levels will require a lot of reading and coursework, to add a 4th A-level, not because she needs it for what she wants to do, but because she thinks it will look good will more likely just cause her massive amounts of stress and potentially lower marks overall.

Generally students who take 4 A levels take Maths and Further Maths as two of them as they are good enough at maths that the workload of A level maths is less than for other students so they can cope better.

No to a 4th A level. It’s not needed and even the top Uni’s only look at the top 3 A levels for entry. It’s a waste to do 4 A levels.

Seeing Latin listed, is your DD leaning towards ancient history & classics? Fan of the Romans?

If so, consider taking the Classical Civilisation A level instead of History or Politics. The History A levels go nowhere near Romans.

Solid set of A levels for a History degree. Maths absolutely not necessary.

This is bad advice given that OP’s child wants to do History. History is more rigorous in terms of source analysis etc and it would be bonkers not to do it regardless of the periods they are interested in. They could substitute politics for Class Civ.

History is not “more rigorous” than Classical Civilisation in terms of source analysis!

They are both equally rigorous and if her DD is more interested in Ancient History than repeating European history from Renaissance to Cold War, then this will be more interesting and give her a chance to study sources in the original Latin.

It is also the A level preferred if going on to do an ancient history or a classics uni degree. The DD is taking A level Latin- that indicates a possible interest in ancient history (not British history)

https://www.ocr.org.uk/qualifications/as-and-a-level/classical-civilisation-h008-h408-from-2017/