A-Levels choices - do we add maths or not?

[Wafflesandcrepes]

DD is going into year 11 and has started asking me questions about A-levels which I’m unable to answer as I’ve not been educated here in Britain.

DD wants to take Latin, History and Politics A-Levels. History is really her pet subject and has been from an early age. DD will probably want to do a history degree at university.

She thinks this combo might be a bit “basic” (her words) and is wondering whether to add maths to it.

I’m now wondering whether the history-latin-politics combo is not enough in itself. It sounds good to me!

And also if A-Levels Maths is much harder than GCSE. DD is predicted a 9 in maths but this has required quite a lot of support at home in the past.

Thank you in advance for any advice and insights.

Something I caught on a recent Radio4 Programme - the Latin historians of 2000ish years ago had a totally different philosophy of history to us. They had no allegiance to the idea of neutrally establishing facts and truth. A history was a work created for the purpose of moral education, so they were perfectly happy to make up all sorts of details about the events they were writing about if it supported the ethical narrative they wanted to build. That must introduce a huge difference in how History and ClassCiv treat their source analysis (without making either "more rigorous")

Thank you so much for all your advice. This is so useful. I had no idea there were different kinds of maths A-levels, which is something we’ll investigate further with the school. Like many of you, I don’t think maths is necessary as part of her combo but Core Maths might keep her maths brain active and not take up too much of her time. We’ll see. Thank you ever so much.

My child got a 9 for GCSE maths. They then did the A-level. They really struggled. We had to pay for extra tutoring and they managed to get an A grade in the end. It was actually not worth it. They were much more inclined to humanities and essay writing. Got A stars in the other humanities.

They felt they needed to do maths to try and seem ‘clever’. Their logic. Not ours. It was the wrong decision and a very stressful waste of energy and affected their overall confidence.

Maths is a big step up GCSE to A Level. If she's unlikely to study anything that actually uses advanced maths, her first choice combo is fine. Ultimately, take subjects enjoy, are good at, and get you where you want to be.

So I'm going to go against the grain here and argue that yes she should take maths. It is an incredibly useful subject. Even if she were to go into law or journalism, there is massive demand for people who can both write well AND make sense of numbers.

Maths with stats is particularly relevant for anything related to humanities. Think about adding up who died of what in archeology or making sense of the economy in journalism.

Maths is useful in all these.

Could you think beyond the history degree (sixth form teacher here)? Where do they see that going? There are a lot of history grads out there.

It’s not just about the degree - it’s about the pathway. When they will come out with £60,000 of debt, it has to be worthwhile and lead somewhere.

So a broader range at A level can offer further options later. You say Latin ~ are they a language buff that might be better suited to a modern language? History and politics do seem quite similar to me ~ if not maths, then economics?

I’d think about the long term and well done that child for being perceptive enough to challenge their own choices.

Even as a banking lawyer in the magic circle you only need the most basic of numeracy skills (getting the commas in the right place on a multi billion pound loan document or the correct basis points for the interest rate). The really tricky number stuff is done by the accountants and financial advisors on big transactions.

Unless your DC is a natural mathematician, and fantastic grades will follow, I would counsel against doing maths with the hope it will help secure a training contract or material advantage in the legal world.

Think of the mistakes that politicians make saying they want "everyone to be above average" or not knowing the difference between a % increase and actual increase. Or not knowing that falling inflation does not mean prices go down.

Having maths-stats A level makes you more confident to read, understand and talk about stats and that is valuable in many fields.

Ermm....I know those things and did not do maths. That's numeracy!

Even if she were to go into law or journalism, there is massive demand for people who can both write well AND make sense of numbers.

"Making sense of numbers" is something that numerate people can do. A Level maths won't particularly help with this.
(I did a maths degree and got rather fed up of thinking that it must be about times tables of large numbers).

I wouldn't add Maths.
If she wants to do Maths I would replace one of the others with it. There's no particular value to having 4 A levels in terms of University applications, unless the 4th is Further Maths and you're headed in a mathematical direction. For the vast majority of people 3 good grades at A level will open more doors than 4 lower ones and it is a real possibility that you will drop grades if you're overstretched. In the days when you did AS levels at the end of year 12 so there was a qualification even if you dropped a subject at that point it made a bit more sense, but since AS and A levels were decoupled I think the risks of attempting 4 far outweigh the benefits. Several of my DC's friends started with 4 and dropped one fairly quickly but even by that stage they were on the back foot with the other 3 because they had over stretched themselves and under estimated the workload compared to GCSE. The only pupils I know who have successfully managed 4 in recent years have had FM as the 4th apart from one very talented musician who did music as a 4th and someone who did their native language. Doing 4, disparate, academic A levels would be a big ask and it doesn't really add anything to your CV.
Personally, I probably wouldn't do maths unless she really loves it or really needs it. Both my sons were in the latter category and they probably worked nearly as hard on maths as their other 2 A levels put together. Unless they are naturally very talented I think most people find Maths A level a challenge and it's not something that would be easy to tag onto A levels that will be demanding in their own right.

Interesting post OP!

My dd1 is also going into Y11 and thinking of a similar combination of A Levels.

She currently has in mind:

1. Maths
2. Further Maths
3. Politics
4. Sociology or History

She is not sure about the Further Maths yet, or which one to go for out of Sociology or History. But I think Maths and Politics look very likely choices for her.

She will find out more at the 6th form Open Evenings and when she has predicted grades from her Y11 mocks.

DS got a 9 in maths, 7 in FM and has found A-level maths tough, I'm keeping my fingers crossed for at least a B now, with the huge jump in grade boundaries last year. I wouldn't recommend it as a 4th A-level unless she really loves it, it's just going to be an unnecessary slog.

I can't answer for journalism, but I completely disagree that a-levels maths is of use as a lawyer. I agree there is demand for people who can both write and who are good with numbers. I disagree that there's a need for a-level maths to signal you're 'good with numbers' or that there's anything in the a-level mats syllabus that is at all relevant to the type of numerical ability that is useful for a lawyer.

Things like understanding how %s works is GCSE maths and she's on for a 9 there so clearly gets the basics.

Unless she really wants to do maths a-level, I wouldn't - it sounds like it will be hard work for her and she's likely to come out with a lower grade than she might in other subjects. The step up between GCSE maths and a-level maths was the biggest academic jump I've ever done (and (without wanting to sound like an arse, but I probably do!) I didn't need to work for my A* at GCSE (or A at A-level, FM A-level was a slog for an A though)).

I do see benefit in statistics for history though, but not enough for her to change a-level choices unless she wants to and if she has decent maths ability she can pick up stats pretty easily if she needs to during her degree (stats isn't particularly hard, it's just learning the concepts).

Oh and doing it as a 4th a-level would be madness. If she wants to do maths she needs to drop Latin or Politics.

Stats being useful for people doing humanities is exactly why Core Maths was created. It's basically no algebra, with real world stuff like financial maths and statistics.

It's only half an A-level equivalent and is designed to be taken alongside 3 A-levels.

I’d love her to do economics but she won’t entertain it. Her school’s politics department does feminism as a political theory, which is very, very keen to do.

Beyond 6th form and uni, she wants to be a journalist or a lawyer (I can see her as a human rights lawyer.)

And thank you everyone for the insights, advice and questions. This is all so helpful.

You say you weren't educated in Britain @OP. Maybe you are more used to the Bacalaureate system where schooling is still quite broad at 18+? Rest assured, it is completely normal to specialise at A level, as pp have said, a combo a science and maths; a combo of humanities; a combo of languages, with some supporting subject maybe. To this end, Latin, history and politics is a great combo for studying a History. Maths won't really add anything

@Wafflesandcrepes maths would be a useful addition for journalism. The mis-reporting of statistics by mathematically-illiterate content contributers is a huge issue for the public understanding of just about everything ... health, immigration, the economy, you name it. I imagine it would be helpful for law for similar reasons.

If there is any chance of her becoming a history teacher, maths would give her an advantage for the most competitive jobs. There is a huge shortage of maths teachers, and a relative surplus of history teachers, so history teachers who can also teach maths will be most in demand.

Core Maths is a great option - listen to the item on it in this episode of BBC Money Box and you'll be wanting to study it yourself!: https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m001tpwb

p.s. The Core Maths item is about 9 mins 45s into the recording.

I agree with this. A historian might also benefit from the same basic understanding of statistics as other humanities disciplines, so maths or core maths would be helpful in that way. Latin could definitely be useful, depending on what period of history she is interested in studying. But her original choices are fine, if she concludes that she doesn't want to change anything.

How exactly would maths Alevel help for law? Please be specific about which part of the maths Alevel syllabus you're referring to.

If she’s heading towards uni for law or history or politics then I’d definitely ditch Latin and add Maths because post-university it is always a good qualification on a CV (assuming she gets an A). Being “a numbers person” is never a bad thing.

Latin is possibly even a bit divisive - so few state schools now teach it, I would think twice about employing someone who thought it was worth 2 years of their time (I’m sure that says something bad about me but I would definitely be asking “soooooo … why Latin?” And secretly I’d be thinking “elitist posh kid out of touch with reality”.)

I'm sure there are some scenarios where having a Maths A Level rather than a Latin one would be a good thing on a CV. But I can't actually think of one at the moment. Not to mention that plenty of future employers won't even ask for your A Levels.