If the government bought out all the private school…

[Tiredalwaystired]

inspired by the thread where a parent was incredulous when they investigated their local state school and really liked it after sending their kid to private school until now without having investigated state at all.

Imagine a world where we decided there was no more private/state school divide.

Imagine the government bought out all the private schools exactly as they are - same teachers, class sizes etc.

But instead of being exclusive anyone could now apply and they had the same admission requirements as any other school.

Would you be happy with this arrangement? Would you have any concerns?

I don't think the Government (we taxpayers) could afford to buy them all out.

The government can't afford to buy out the church schools hence the religious selection for many state schools.

You can also talk about the super selective grammar school. Sometimes, It's the bunch of kids who you want your kids to join.

I don’t mind that idea - like vol aided or controlled schools. State pays fees - at the standard rate, obvs. Old foundation maintains buildings and sometimes tops things up a bit too. Schools have to follow admissions code.

id be all for that.

I think Finland do something like that.

When my children were at private school I liked the smaller class sizes, the before and after school provision, the longer school days and the longer holidays. I doubt if those things would be available if state run.

The government wouldn't need to buy the school - loads of state schools, including all the church schools and a lot of recently built academies, are owned by nongovernmental bodies.

During Tony Blair's Education, Education, Education honeymoon period quite a few private schools converted to state schools. Their governing body retains ownership of the buildings, they obviously had to massively increase class sizes, and now their income comes from government funding formulae rathet than parental fees.

Of the two that did this near us, both became instantly hugely popular top choice of school. They both had lottery-style admissions arrangements. One quickly got a reputation for being the best mainsteam senior school locally for kids with milder SEN but therefore got a disproportionate amount of kids with complex SEN who should really have been in a special school but there aren't enough special school places. I understand they are losing this reputation now because the overwhelming needs have meant a lot of kids get let down. The other remained popular for a while but had poor management at the top and was in Special-Measures/Required Improvement a few years ago.

Certainly any school that can't make ends meet if too many leave due to VAT could consider converting in a similar way, but it would need to be on a case by case basis. Demographics are shifting and in some places there's no need for another school's worth of capacity. In other places there's a shortage and I'm sure a conversion like this would be seriously considered.

There's already a property price division - we have two 'excellent' and one 'good' state primaries within walking distance which keeps average price for three bed plus teeny box room terrace over £1m near me. Having a great private school nearby doesn't really have the same effect as there's no catchment area.
I can foresee a sudden jump in prices if a decent private school, with all the bells and whistles, suddenly became free! Wouldn't you want your kids to go to a school with large sports grounds, good facilities and small class sizes and perhaps good SEN support? If price not a barrier, location will be.
While we have great primaries as I've said, secondaries not so much, but there are a few wonderful private ones and I could see a race to move nearer them.

What a great idea. This would work really well in my town. We had a private school fail, and close.

It had acres and acres of land. The local community used it for sports. It had an arts and kitchen which local clubs used. It had a pool and sports hall used by local clubs. It had a beautiful building.

Our town had a massive population explosion, and in fact I sent my DC to private because my eldest was offered a school an hour away due to no state places in year 3 locally.

What a great idea for the local council to take over the school. They looked into it, but decided no.

It took 3 years for lawyers to smash through the 350 year old covenant that it was only ever to be used for education, but they did it, and it now has 350 houses on it. No more school places though, so the theory that our schools are empty and there’s loads of spaces for returning SEN/Bursary kids is bullshit.

@mondaytosunday that's exactly why the two schools I know of who did this have no catchment area. Anyone who lives within a commutable radius can apply. There's well over a thousand applicants for 180ish places. It's done by lottery so no advantage to moving closer (unless you are lucky and get a place in the lottery, you might well then move so that your kid isn't on a bus for an hour every morning)

The state couldn't afford to buy them and legally it would be difficult if they are charities.
BUT if they could I reckon that most of the land they sit on would be sold off to developers in order to recoup most of the purchase price. The state has already got form for selling off playing fields of state schools.
They would struggle to afford the upkeep of the private schools which have listed buildings in their school so I reckon these would get sold off too.

If they stayed exactly as they are now then you would still get selection by income as house prices would shoot up in the catchment areas so lower income families would get priced out anyway. So they would be "free", but only for those who could afford to live in the catchment.

You missed the word “imagine”

If the class sizes were kept small, the PP funding would have to be much higher than at the 'always state' next door (not to mention maintaining the buildings and grounds if we are saying those are staying). How would you square that fairly?

@WASZPy the class sizes wouldn't be kept small. It would only work in schools where the buildings were built with generous classroom sizes. The two ex-private schools I know of have class sizes around 30 like any state school. Others that are still private have typical classrooms that couldn't take more than 20 (which is fine as class sizes are around 15) and couldn't possibly be converted in this way.

Interesting point - I think you're correct!

'The difference between imagination and thinking is that imagination is a creative process that uses the imagination to generate ideas and think outside the box, while thinking is an analytical process that involves using logical reasoning and using facts and evidence to come to a conclusion.'

Westminster school aspires to go ‘needs blind’. That means anyone could sit the exam and, if they were accepted, the fees would be determined by parental income (up to full bursary). That would effectively make them a privately owned grammar school.

They already do a lot of community work.

‘Since the School’s foundation, the desire to educate the brightest and the best, regardless of financial circumstances, has been core to its philosophy and this remains the case today. We need your help to continue to provide this financial assistance for any child who will flourish at Westminster School and we invite you to do so by making a gift to the Bursary Fund, which needs approximately £1.5M per year to support current bursary pupils.’

The teachers are the same in state and private. The class sizes are sometimes different

Classrooms in private rend to be physically smaller so it is hard to increase class sizes without modifying classrooms. Many have capacity for only 500 DC from years 7-13 which wouldn't be financially viable under current state funding.

My ds is at a small independent on a scholarship.

I couldn't care less who owns the school. It isn't particularly smart, plenty of army, local farming families, a few professionals. Cars in the carpark are typically 5yo family hatches or mucky landrovers.

Obviously I'd like someone else to pay for it, but the reasons my DS wanted to go for the scholarship, and why, when he won it, I've spent every penny I have meeting the half-fees are:

• He can enjoy studying maths and physics without being called a swot
• He is challenged & engaged
• He can read a novel at lunchtime without being bullied
• He is happy and confident, rather than the miserable, lonely, angry child who came out of state primary
• Football is not the only sport that matters. He is supported in doing a variety of activities and now enjoys sport
• He no longer feels excluded.
• At 10yo he told me calmly he wanted to kill himself because of school. That hasn't happened since.

I said in my post that in this theoretical situation these things would remain. They just wouldn’t be exclusive.

You would still have a 2 tier system though then, just the state would pay instead of parents. The state would have to fund an extra £4 billion per year plus upkeep of the buildings etc

There’s so much more to private schools than who owns them. Factors in our decision included being able to play a sport that is rarely offered at state school, having long sports sessions and wraparound care at primary that allowed me to work. If the government bought private schools, none of those things would be continued.

@Tiredalwaystired ,

‘I said in my post that in this theoretical situation these things would remain. They just wouldn’t be exclusive.’

If I won a competition to stay at an exclusive 5* resort, it wouldn’t make the resort less exclusive.

As a PP said, though, the properties in the catchment area, which would probably be a couple of blocks, would just become insanely expensive, and those who could afford hot and cold tutoring would get a massive advantage.

oh yes! and they could buy up the swathes of land and whole villages private schools own and we could play football on the fields and house low earners in those pretty little cottages, or plough the rent from the big commercial farms back into the education system - great idea OP, let's start a petition

My DC had all that at their state secondary so you don't have to go private