Read this an tell me you still agree with VAT on school fees

[Sally20099]

DS is 3 years from finishing private school which includes 2 years in the sixth form. DD was due to start same senior school in Sept. Both went to private prep but due to talk of VAT on fees, and certainty of Labour govt for some time, we actually investigated sending DD to state secondary school. Only one in the entire city is rated outstanding but DD has got a place so we have decided to send her there. It’s very good academically but obviously hasn’t got the facilities of the private option. Currently school fees are £19,300 per year (before VAT) for DS so we have saved a reasonable sum by going to state school with DD. DS will finish at his school and we could afford DD fees (even with VAT) so we will instead put £12k a year extra in savings for DD and then spend the rest of the savings on an extra winter holiday. We would have never looked at state schools without the VAT policy and instead we have taken the place of someone at an outstanding rated school. Im not posting to annoy anyone, I wanted those who unequivocally support this to see some of the consequences. We also know a reasonable number of children in DS year who can’t afford fees with VAT and are taking their children out of private and going into state - and taking more places at the limited good schools. Its probably no surprise that most families in private schools happen to also live in good areas, meaning catchment areas tend to work out quite well when they go state.

Are you referring to the Human Rights Convention? Whose rights are being infringed in this situation?

So if not the EA, which laws will be applicable for the legal challenge?

Surely people aren't actually going to try to make the case that it's an infringement of human rights?

@MrsBennetsPoorNerves - nobody is going to tell you the detail. Why would they? It would be expensive legal advice and may be very embarrassing ultimately for those currently in charge.

Lol, I'm not asking for legal advice, I'm simply asking which laws people think might be relevant, but if you don't know and you're simply speculating about a possible legal challenge, that's fine.

Is the government "discriminating" against me as a higher earner by demanding that I pay a higher proportion of my income in tax? Well, yes, I suppose they are. Is that "discrimination" illegal? Well, no, obviously not.

When you are priviledged it's not uncommon to see equality as discrimination.

People who earn £300k pa are more likely to buy a house rather than pay for rent. Unless they are expats and only temp in UK.
Having said that most of high earners already fully own their house without a mortgage

@MrsBennetsPoorNerves

You can read Dan Neidle’s view on using the ECHR to challenge the VAT on X - he’s a tax lawyer.

https://x.com/danneidle/status/1806732361838592115?s=46&t=fMjCB4vFfhN6mYE72mhHw

TLDR: Neidle thinks a challenge using EHCR is unlikely to win, and even if it did it Acts of Parliament are not overridden and wouldn’t require the UK Government to change tax law.

Why would you say that? The times when OFSTED school reviews were a farce have been gone since 2020

@PeachSalad really? Can you explain a bit more? When exactly did the work of Ofsted become reliable and meaningful?

Dan Neidle is a Labour member and helps with appeal hearings on the National Constitutional Committee, the party’s disciplinary body. For all we know, he may be planning his own political career in the future.

There is a person with Dan Neidle’s expertise in most big law firms, typically with kids in private schools, just because they are not shouting out loudly, doesn’t mean they wouldn’t be planning a challenge.

At the end of the day most people either do not care about VAT on private school fees or support adding it because only 7% of kids go to private schools. It does not impact most people. Most think using the VAT to help state schools sounds very good.

A bit off topic but the combination of entrance exams to private schools (ensuring they get the brightest kids so best gcse results) and parents switching earlier in Y3 or Y5 to skip the entrance exams is really frustrating in my area. It is something that impacts the state primaries round here to the detriment of the remaining kids. In my local primary a third of kids staring reception head off to other places before Y6 and it is usually a private school. The primaries then struggle with funding. I have spoken to parents who switched in primary who tell me they loved the primary (outstanding school) but are helping the school by switching without realising they are not. There are not extra pupils waiting for the places by Y5. So the school just loses funding but still has the same costs. At least switching at the start of Y7 allows schools to properly plan for pupil numbers.

Once the school was marked Outstanding it was not suppose to be visited for many years. This was insane. It has changed in recent years. In the past Grammar schools were all outstanding, no matter what. Now they are assessed more realistically and there are no sacred untouchable schools

I can see by the school I know and experienced that the reports are more reflecting the reality.

Neidle was the UK head of tax at Clifford Chance, and is on record for criticising Labour Party tax policy.

Other tax lawyers on that thread agreed with Neidle - Thomas de La Mare for instance. Maybe they are all labour supporters too?

@PeachSalad I work in education for an 'outstanding' provider and we are still waiting for a visit. I am not saying that you are wrong in your assumptions but would suggest that Ofsted is really not fit for purpose whether they visit regularly or not.

I still agree with VAT on school fees.

When was the last inspection at your school? Of course Ofsted is not ideal but is far more fit for purpose today than before 2020. Certainly there is far more to the assesment of the school than GCSE results and that is why Ofsted is needed.

I guess time will tell if any of the legal challenges succeed. I haven't yet seen any evidence that would suggest that the policy is illegally discriminatory in any way, and I can't see how it would be, but let's see what happens.

@SabrinaThwaite - like I said, there are the very vocal ones on social media. But there are plenty of quieter and very knowledgeable experts too.

“For all the obvious and unoriginal reasons (this is site is now a hell hole etc) I am giving it a rest here, but I am defecting to Bluesky to see if that works better/people are more civilised,
@thebrieftweet
.bsky.social. Good luck all, and please let me known if there to follow.”

Thomas De La Mare leaving Twitter.

Nuff said.

And your point is?

Stating that you’re leaving Twitter is completely unrelated to his reply to Dan Neidle.

I’m not sure why you think that. In my experience nothing much has changed. Parents who think that pupils need to attend good or outstanding schools in order to be successful are deluded and have fallen for the propaganda.

80 percent of schools have been downgraded. How can you say nothing has changed?
Nobody says Ofsted reviews are ideal but certainly they are more thorough than fee years ago. Certainly reading a report is a lesser trap than tormenting a child to go through 11+ process to get to underfunded grammar school with poor teaching and poor pastoral care just because it is hard to get in.

Nothing of significance has changed. OFSTED gradings are unreliable, that hasn’t changed. OFSTED assess very narrow and predefined criteria, that hasn’t changed. They make judgments after looking at a very complex picture through a very narrow lens for a very short space of time, that hasn’t changed.

The whole idea is that school should perform at any time, even during random visits. There is no chance to have Ofsted worker installed permanently in each school to learn about the school at depth. In no country it would be possible.
The progress by Ofsted has been made. Before the assesments have been elevated. Now is more strict. I hope they will make even more improvements to the control system over time.

I hear opinion like yours most often from school workers or those influenced by them. Obviously the downgraded school will see all reasons why Ofsted is bad and they are a great school. Just as pupils are upset at the teacher, exams for their results :)

Also, it is worth noting that we are on the brink of further changes. The Labour has voted and agreed to reform the Ofsted:
enhance the inspection regime by replacing a single headline grade with a new report card system telling parent clearly how schools are performing
<= This already exists if somebody is willing to read the report rather than relying on the final total grade.