Read this an tell me you still agree with VAT on school fees

[Sally20099]

DS is 3 years from finishing private school which includes 2 years in the sixth form. DD was due to start same senior school in Sept. Both went to private prep but due to talk of VAT on fees, and certainty of Labour govt for some time, we actually investigated sending DD to state secondary school. Only one in the entire city is rated outstanding but DD has got a place so we have decided to send her there. It’s very good academically but obviously hasn’t got the facilities of the private option. Currently school fees are £19,300 per year (before VAT) for DS so we have saved a reasonable sum by going to state school with DD. DS will finish at his school and we could afford DD fees (even with VAT) so we will instead put £12k a year extra in savings for DD and then spend the rest of the savings on an extra winter holiday. We would have never looked at state schools without the VAT policy and instead we have taken the place of someone at an outstanding rated school. Im not posting to annoy anyone, I wanted those who unequivocally support this to see some of the consequences. We also know a reasonable number of children in DS year who can’t afford fees with VAT and are taking their children out of private and going into state - and taking more places at the limited good schools. Its probably no surprise that most families in private schools happen to also live in good areas, meaning catchment areas tend to work out quite well when they go state.

The VAT is immediately paid by the consumer of the service, it wouldn’t be under the discretion of the school. The schools can claim back VAT for certain things, but this is more than wiped out by the business rate also being implemented at the same time. It’s an attack on the PS sector, designed to price middle class parents out and make it easier to attack as elitist in the future. I’ve yet to read any comments from anyone defending the policy who actually understands the ramifications, the understanding seems to stop at ‘oh a tax someone else will pay’.

You need only read every thread on this subject - just look at the first page of this thread for example! And I recall a similar post to the one you mention referring to private school children as "academically substandard". There has been far more abuse towards private school parents - because that's the acceptable and cool thing to do.

It won’t be the ones that can afford I that will be leaving. It’s too much of a ball ache. Those that have to leave as they can’t afford it will go to the local state school.

And honestly, this is a live issue in terms of real disruption to a child for three years tops - til those in year nine now have finished their exams. There’s a natural break point at a level and those younger can move their child without it hugely impacting on their education.

Kids in those school years and kids with appalling SEN options elsewhere I feel for. All other kids will be just fine.

I completely agree with this, which is why the policy won’t achieve it’s stated aim of raising revenue and will most likely begin to cost the state as middle class parents opt for state schools. In which case, what is the point in ‘real disruption to a child for three years tops’? Shouldn’t we seek not to actively cause disruption for children? I genuinely see no other possible motivation than spite.

Yes. Although I don't agree that it'll only be those who can't afford it who will leave...we can afford it but whether we want to stay and pay such high tax in this country, when there are attractive options abroad, is a different matter.

If people in the jobs that command the highest salaries cut their hours or left the country, in the vast majority of cases, they would simply be replaced by a person already snapping at their heels. These jobs are highly sort after and there is plenty of competition. I know there's a conceit that they can only be done by certain exceptional individuals, but our current system allows huge amounts of potential talent from amongst other demographics currently under represented at the top level to go untapped. I struggle to believe that the predominantly male, white, middle class individuals who are disproportionately in the highest paid roles are the only ones able to do them. They are simply trading on the advantages they themselves recieved and recruiting in their own image to ensure the roles are gatekept to their demographic. If these individuals want to free up roles that could be taken up by other sections of society, I see that as another positive.

I am very grateful to additional and higher rate tax payers who work full time, and often more than 8 hours a day, and use minimal public services and send their DC to private schools. I just want to come out there and state that! The politicians also need to learn to ask nicely.

And shame on those on MN who are rich and preach to others that they are somehow doing something moral by sending their DC to state school. You are not- you are scrounging off the state when you didn’t need to! At least own it. And it’s fine - everyone is entitled to their state place, but it isn’t morally superior to private school, far from it.
It’s important the politicians make that clear and ask private school parents nicely to pay the VAT. They don’t have to!! It’s optional as the state place has to be provided.

And shame on those on MN who are rich and preach to others that they are somehow doing something moral by sending their DC to state school.

That’s no different to private school parents claiming the moral high ground by paying for private education.

Seriously?? The jobs go with the people, I presume your experience is limited to the public sector. Whole businesses and departments simply move counties when they can’t find the talent that want to live in that country, schools play a huge role in the attractiveness of living there. The mental gymnastics of some of these posts to defend this policy are actually impressive.

@5128gap is incorrect. There is a high skills shortage in many areas. That is a known and documented fact. Other countries want our talent. Everyone wants youngish, highly skilled, high tax paying healthy families now.

Ignore posters who don’t understand economics. They may be Russian bots in any event, trying to undermine our country.

This tax is a huge message to this income group of high earners that the labour party are after them.

I'm a global head of dept in an international law firm and I'm not male or middle class - I come from a very working class background and I'm first generation uni. What will happen is that it will actually feed into that stereotype even more because those who came from privilege themselves are least likely to be affected by it!!

Will you really up and leave for this reason if you can afford it though? Is this the dealbreaker for your uprooting your children? If the school had decided to up costs that much without government pressure would that have made you leave the country or would you have swallowed it?

These kind of threads do remind me of all those “if Labour gets in I’m leaving the country” posts weve seen celebrities spout on x over the years. I don’t really recall them putting their not inconsiderable money where their mouth is.

I can see where you're coming from(as I recall those celebs too) and this isn't meant as a threat - I'm just saying you get to a point where you need to weigh up whether it is worth staying. For the record I've always been a Labour voter and I'm generally pleased they're in government.

However, at my income level it kind of feels now like the straw that broke the camel's back. I work long hours in a stressful environment (and I'm certainly not saying others don't) but it feels like I'm not seeing the benefits of that so much any more and it is disincentivising - especially when I've been approached about really lucrative jobs abroad. It's something to weigh up and work out if it would be a great experiencing rather than us "uprooting" our children.

You have to factor in schools closing and the rhetoric behind the policy as well. Cost of living is more likely to be swallowed than a targeted punitive act against your children. It’s certainly an undeniable push factor, the question is with this policy why are trying to find out the extent this will negatively impact? It makes no sense.

Labour haven’t been in power for 14 years which is why the celebrities haven’t had reason to leave, the previous bunch were also relatively sensible.

Whole businesses and departments will not pull out of the UK because a few of their employees can't afford to pay VAT on school fees and fewer still will decide to leave the country because of it. Any mental gymnastics you accuse me of is more than matched by the silly drama and hyperbole of those who think the UK will fall apart if they leave it in a huff.

Good for you. Would you say there was a proportional representation of people from your background amongst your peers, given the likelihood of talent and potential from your demographic being equal to that of those from the 'stereotypical' backgrounds? Because if not, my point stands, regardless of your success as an individual.

Absolutely not and it's not right - but this isn't the way to fix it.

Personally I would not be going to the Middle East in this climate. Australia etc maybe. Or just choose state schooling and cut your stress levels.

This policy on private schools makes zero economic sense though. That is a given. I don’t think we can afford vanity projects like this at the moment.

So what is? Genuine question. Because private education makes it harder for less advantaged people to break through, so why would anyone wanting to see greater equality of opportunity across the social classes want the government to support it with a VAT exemption?

But I really think that is oversimplifying it because this will just lead to a bigger divide. A lot of businesses are working hard to create more equality. But in terms of aspirations etc, I might be shot down for this, but a lot of that surely comes down to parental engagement and encouragement. I don't actually think that if mine went to a state school they'd come out with worse grades - I don't do it for the academics.

Things aren't going to change overnight.

Charging VAT is entirely the right thing to do. VAT was a tax brought in for luxury items, which is what sending your child to a private school is.

I for one am more than happy to see this happen. It's only going to effect those already there for a few years.

Private schools create division and breed entitlement and we already have enough of that in our society.

Businesses and departments do move because the location is unattractive to the talent, it seems futile to discuss this as it’s a fact. Less choice in schools and divisive rhetoric against children makes the U.K. a less desirable location to live and work in.

My comment around mental gymnastics refers to the view that high tax payers leaving the country is somehow positive and was not aimed at you personally. Nobody is leaving in a huff or thinks the U.K. will fall apart without them, just pointing out there will be less income tax receipts as the effects are felt. I understand it is your opinion that less income tax is a good thing, but this is not a stated aim of this policy and in fact the policy has been sold as the opposite in that it is revenue generating.

Education is not a luxury in a civilised nation, education taxes are banned in the EU.

’Private schools create division and breed entitlement and we already have enough of that in our society.’
The aim of this policy is to raise revenue and not for ideological purposes, you are going off script. The divisiveness has certainly not come from private schools.

… designed to price middle class parents out and make it easier to attack as elitist in the future

I think this from @Afterours is really important, and the most succinctly I have seen it put.

All the argument is that this is accidentally widening the gap and making the schools more elitist. What if it’s not accidental at all?

Once all of those who have stretched to afford it … those who have chosen private to make up for poor state provision, to make up for failing SEN, to provide an education to kids with poor mental health following covid etc … once they have been priced out, and the smaller more modest private schools are gone … at that point Labour can point to the remainder of private schools and say they are elitist, and only millionaires can afford them, and look, they have ponies!

Whats particularly clever is that at that point those who were priced out by VAT will probably agree.

There is a word for it, but I forget what it is. A chess move too, IIRC. But either way, they are playing a long game with this, and being disingenuous about “accidental” fallout for those affected.