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Secondary education

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Grammar schools to be means tested for free places

132 replies

dera35 · 25/06/2024 15:16

Are admissions to Grammar schools going to be means tested for free places ? I.e Children from affluent families will pay fees ?

I can understand if it goes that way because there is lots of independent research that points to Grammar schools being dominated by affluent families and especially using expensive private tuition for entrance tests.

OP posts:
BrownTroutBluesAgain · 26/06/2024 15:54

nearlylovemyusername · 26/06/2024 15:42

But those intelligent educated parents can buy their DC books and do prep with them - how is this fair to bright DCs of thick /uneducated parents or those hardworking ones who don't have skills or time and can't prep their kids?

I’m afraid you’re living in cloud coocoo land if you think anyone has the ability to monitor home support.
You can’t stop parents helping their kids and you can’t make parents help them either.

nearlylovemyusername · 26/06/2024 16:05

@BrownTroutBluesAgain

Education is free, but as this thread highlights

  1. grammar schools provide better education and then life opportunities than comps (at average)
  2. grammars disproportionally benefit those better off, presumably because of their ability to buy homes within catchment and tutor their kids

Our society is aiming for equality so why to leave this loophole for the rich who escape private school fees and VAT?

CurlewKate · 26/06/2024 16:28

Conservative Central Office not at its best today....

Needmorelego · 26/06/2024 16:29

@nearlylovemyusername that's my point.....
the test should be done with no preparation or practice.

BrownTroutBluesAgain · 26/06/2024 17:04

nearlylovemyusername · 26/06/2024 16:05

@BrownTroutBluesAgain

Education is free, but as this thread highlights

  1. grammar schools provide better education and then life opportunities than comps (at average)
  2. grammars disproportionally benefit those better off, presumably because of their ability to buy homes within catchment and tutor their kids

Our society is aiming for equality so why to leave this loophole for the rich who escape private school fees and VAT?

Because we live in a country where all education is free if you want it! As I’ve already said! That’s the welfare state.
Means testing education is morally repugnant!

It’s not just about schools either is it. Lots of things give ‘others an upper hand’ As mentioned above how can anyone ‘police’ parents helping their kids.

Look at kids clubs.
Football, tennis, or music and language lessons. You need to pay for these and hence give your kids an upper hand.

As a society how can we stop parents supporting their kids because some parents can’t afford it, work nights or weekends, or don’t have the education level. How do we do this short of removing all kids from their parents at birth and putting them into a state run home. We can’t.

If the Government want to remove all Grammars or private schools because of inequality then they will also have to

  1. level up or down all schools as equal. Why should some kids get outstanding schools and other good or needs improvement.
  2. monitor all home support and stop parents supporting their kids.
  3. get rid of all forms of clubs and out of school learning ( dance, music, drama, art, first aid, sports etc )

Good luck with all that.

TizerorFizz · 28/06/2024 13:40

What I would prefer to see is all schools, certainly in grammar LAs, running 11 plus clubs for those who would benefit. This would clearly level the playing field. State schools in Bucks cannot “tutor” so parents pay. Others get their tutoring in private schools. Fsm dc can get in with a lower score but the just about managing families really lose out. Level the playing field and run after school tutoring.

Elizo · 28/06/2024 16:07

No they are state schools

ErrolTheDragon · 28/06/2024 17:18

TizerorFizz · 28/06/2024 13:40

What I would prefer to see is all schools, certainly in grammar LAs, running 11 plus clubs for those who would benefit. This would clearly level the playing field. State schools in Bucks cannot “tutor” so parents pay. Others get their tutoring in private schools. Fsm dc can get in with a lower score but the just about managing families really lose out. Level the playing field and run after school tutoring.

Why can't state schools 'tutor' though? Back when I did the 11+, the last year to take it in my area, we did 11+ preparation in 4th year juniors (as year 6 was then called). Every child ... I wasn't aware of any additional tutoring going on.

TizerorFizz · 28/06/2024 18:25

I was too - in the 1960s! No state primary in Bucks is allowed to. Everyone here knows that and it doesn’t happen. I think it should and always have. It’s clearly unfair when some parents don’t have the money for tutors. There are practice resources made available here, and that’s it. Dc exceeding have a decent chance of passing but not all will without tutoring. Certainly the secondaries here do have 30% high achievers in some cases.

Seasaltlady · 02/07/2024 10:56

Not specific to means testing grammar schools but I have heard from an education policy friend of mine that means testing higher earners using state education in outstanding schools could be considered as a next step should the VAT policy on private schools not raise the funds needed. Again, at the time she mentioned this to me, it was just being discussed and by no means becoming fact…..but no smoke with fire imo and I wouldn’t be surprised it will inevitably be considered by Labour.

MrsMamaMia · 02/07/2024 11:16

have heard from an education policy friend of mine that means testing higher earners using state education in outstanding schools could be considered as a next step should the VAT policy on private schools not raise the funds needed.
😂that'll make the frothing private gang happy.

I personally wouldn't mind at all paying a small school fee for an outstanding school. I also want a semi-private health service and would be happy to be a gift chunk of my salary to ensure an actual health service not the nothingness that the NHS has become in the last 15 years.

Seasaltlady · 02/07/2024 11:23

MrsMamaMia · 02/07/2024 11:16

have heard from an education policy friend of mine that means testing higher earners using state education in outstanding schools could be considered as a next step should the VAT policy on private schools not raise the funds needed.
😂that'll make the frothing private gang happy.

I personally wouldn't mind at all paying a small school fee for an outstanding school. I also want a semi-private health service and would be happy to be a gift chunk of my salary to ensure an actual health service not the nothingness that the NHS has become in the last 15 years.

Absolutely agree with you! More funds could be raised this way for a better and more well rounded education system for all school children. Same with healthcare - all for free clearly does not work any more and those who earn more and can pay in a bit to make it better for all should be able to do so!

BrownTroutBluesAgain · 02/07/2024 12:03

Any Party that tries that on with education or healthcare won’t last long governing this country.
Its a clear vote loser.

I wouldn’t, however, be surprised if there was a push for people to pay into private health insurance as it’s common in many countries.

mitogoshi · 02/07/2024 12:20

State schools are free. What they do need to do is ensure those from deprived communities are given support to meet their potential which can mean having a lower pass mark for the entry requirement.

Any talk of imposing fees on state education is just the private school parents scaremongering. It is not the policy of any party. Getting rid of the remaining grammar schools however should be a priority to ensure that resources are fairly allocated

leafybrew · 02/07/2024 12:27

dera35 · 25/06/2024 15:26

You didn’t read the post . I asked a question, not stating anything. Parents at the school were discussing it and I had not seen anything in press , hence my question

Yeah - we read the post - which doesn't make sense.

Hence all the comments.

HTH

BrownTroutBluesAgain · 02/07/2024 12:49

mitogoshi · 02/07/2024 12:20

State schools are free. What they do need to do is ensure those from deprived communities are given support to meet their potential which can mean having a lower pass mark for the entry requirement.

Any talk of imposing fees on state education is just the private school parents scaremongering. It is not the policy of any party. Getting rid of the remaining grammar schools however should be a priority to ensure that resources are fairly allocated

Tbh on this thread it seems the issue of paying fees has been brought up by some who think that priority at Grammars should be given to children if they are on FSM.
Or at least OP who queried whether it does already and whether it should.

MrsMamaMia · 02/07/2024 13:18

Seasaltlady · 02/07/2024 11:23

Absolutely agree with you! More funds could be raised this way for a better and more well rounded education system for all school children. Same with healthcare - all for free clearly does not work any more and those who earn more and can pay in a bit to make it better for all should be able to do so!

to make it better for all should be able to do so!

I do NOT want healthcare to be a bit better. I want healthcare to be outstanding as it is in many other countries including former evolving economies. There really is no functioning primary care in England any longer.

TizerorFizz · 02/07/2024 15:47

@mitogoshi At Bucks grammars there are places for fsm dc and they need a lower score to qualify. Not sure it’s all 13, but certainly where I live, they do. M

How would HMRC know where you educate your DC? Very big brother.

Margot2017 · 02/07/2024 21:30

Needmorelego · 26/06/2024 16:29

@nearlylovemyusername that's my point.....
the test should be done with no preparation or practice.

You’re just advocating a race to the bottom. That’s a terrible idea and exactly the wrong message to send to children. They need to work hard and be able to compete successfully - there’s a big world full of people who are striving hard. If they can’t manage that, then they have no hope as adults regardless of where they go to school.

Needmorelego · 02/07/2024 21:42

@Margot2017 but surely the 11+ is a test that shows a child is academically clever enough to be able to do the work at a grammar school.
If some children are constantly practicing or being tutored but others aren't it's not a an accurate or equal test.
Maybe children can be shown the type of questions that will be on the test and taught how to "do" a test (ie if you don't understand a question don't spend all the time on it - skip it and come back to it later on).
They will have all had the same education from reception upwards - so that's what they should be tested on.

Oakskn · 02/07/2024 21:45

noblegiraffe · 25/06/2024 15:25

No. On no planet is this going to happen.

Why not? labour tried to remove grammar schools about 50 years ago. I don’t know how some survived, but there’s no reason why labour wouldn’t slap fees and taxes on these as they are selective and therefore privilege has been gained. They are often populated by extremely affluent people - even richer than private school parents.

noblegiraffe · 02/07/2024 22:20

The Ed Sec who got rid of the most grammar schools was Margaret Thatcher.

'No reason' why Labour might start charging for state education? Really?? Are you sure?

Oakskn · 02/07/2024 22:32

noblegiraffe · 02/07/2024 22:20

The Ed Sec who got rid of the most grammar schools was Margaret Thatcher.

'No reason' why Labour might start charging for state education? Really?? Are you sure?

Children gain clear advantages from grammar schooling. Often, to gain these advantages, they have had paid tutoring, tutoring from their own parents, or live in an expensive house near the school. Or all 3. None of this is any different from a private school parent buying advantages. So I don't see why well off parents using these schools shouldn't be taxed, if private school parents are to be taxed. Labour have been very clear that they do not agree with some children having educational advantages over others, particularly when their sharp elbowed parents have facilitated this.

The order to phase out grammars was made by the Labour government in 1965. This is from the BBC:

During the 1950s and 1960s, it was said, mainly by Labour politicians and egalitarian educationalists, that the selective education system reinforced class division and middle-class privilege.
In 1965, the government ordered local education authorities to start phasing out grammar schools and secondary moderns, and replace them with a comprehensive system.

The quickest changes were made in Labour-controlled areas, while strongly Conservative counties moved slowly or not at all.
A handful of counties and local authorities in England have kept largely selective schools systems, including Kent, Medway, Buckinghamshire and Lincolnshire, while others such as Gloucestershire, Trafford and Slough have a mix.
In other places, a few grammar schools survived in areas that were otherwise fully comprehensive, such as Birmingham, Bournemouth and some London boroughs.
In 1998, Labour's School Standards and Framework Act forbade the establishment of any new all-selective schools.

noblegiraffe · 02/07/2024 22:36

This is desperate stuff.

TizerorFizz · 02/07/2024 22:41

@Oakskn They survived in my overwhelmingly Tory shire because the LEA and council never played ball and put any plans forward. The schools were not about to roll over and neither was the Council. Parents didn’t really seek change either - the grammars circled the wagons and fought their corner very effectively. Thatcher arrived as Education Secretary and the grammars were saved. Not a single one was lost here.

There is some affluence in the grammars here but our two main independents are big name boarding schools. Most parents in the grammars cannot afford them at, currently, £51,000 pa at the most academic one. £38,700 day fees at that one. The other is £4,000 cheaper, so good news!!!

The grammars are different. Many do have dc from “ordinary” but largely intelligent parents. Doctors, farmers, financial advisors, solicitors, surveyors etc. All sorts but they don’t have £80,000 spare from taxed income for high end day fees for two dc. They simply aren’t wealthy. They just do well enough.