Grammar schools to be means tested for free places

[dera35]

Are admissions to Grammar schools going to be means tested for free places ? I.e Children from affluent families will pay fees ?

I can understand if it goes that way because there is lots of independent research that points to Grammar schools being dominated by affluent families and especially using expensive private tuition for entrance tests.

Grammar schools are state schools and are not allowed to charge any fees. Private schools only are fee based

Maybe there's a private school in their area called Something Grammar which has means tested bursaries?

To be fair, the title of your thread is an incorrect statement, not a question.

Exactly

There are grammar schools where x / x% of places do go to those who achieve the required academic standard and also fall into a 'priority group' (which includes Service Premium, those eligible for benefits-based free school meals etc as well as those in or previously in care). When grammar schools were competing for extra funding to allow them to expand a few years ago, including such priority groups in their ranking of applicants was a prerequisite- hence HBS changing its entrance policy from a purely score-ranked one (although it wasn't one of the successful schools anyway).

Our local grammar schools all have this kind of policy, with priority allocations within both the IC and OOC allocations.

But it's not 'means testing' meaning that fees are payable by those not in the 'needy' category. Although I wonder whether someone has picked up on the policy of a nearby school? (Which in itself would be intriguing, as ime, reading school oversubscription criteria is a very, very niche activity, even amongst parents actively applying for school places).

For clarity, they can give priority to pupils eligible for the pupil premium (all children receiving FSM are eligible for the pupil premium) provided this is stated in their oversubscription criteria. That is the only situation in which a state school can take parental income into account. They cannot, under any circumstances, choose to admit a pupil just because their parents are higher earners.

And there are no circumstances in which a state school can charge fees for day pupils. There are, however, a few state boarding schools that can charge a fee for boarding pupils.

Independent schools can, of course, do whatever they want.

My local grammar allocates up to a quarter of places for kids who get pupil premium. The exam has a pass mark and if you don’t hit that you aren’t eligible. But if you don’t get PP then places are allocated (within a catchment area) on scores. So you can get in quite a bit lower down the list of scores if you get PP.

I’d like to think this was about social mobility but frankly I think they are keen on the extra funds it brings in.

Of course you need to check the specific criteria of any school you are thinking of. It is no secret, it will be on the council website.

No, wouldn’t have thought so. It would undermine everyone’s plight to work hard to do well in life. If they means tested, they wouldn’t get the overseas income (for boarders - as some grammars have boarding) and they’d alienate a lot of their local catchment, who, if they didn’t pass the means test (as in, have the disposable income) would just seek an independent alternative. Merit based is the only way.

How do you means test Granny, anyway? We pay our way, but a lot of parents I know have grandparents that pay the fees. So, the circle keeps turning.

Do many grammar schools have a sibling rule? How does this work? Do siblings had to do 11+? Or do they just get a place?

Quite a few grammar schools give sibling priority. The siblings still have to do the 11+. If they don't get a high enough mark they won't get in. However, if they do get a high enough mark they may get priority. The form this takes varies. For some grammars, siblings will be admitted ahead of non-siblings with higher scores. In others, sibling priority only comes into play if a tie-breaker is needed to separate candidates with the same score.

I live in a grammar school area and there has been no mention of this by friends with school age children or in the local press.

Why not?

Sounds like great idea - why some wealthier kids should get better education than the others?

Labour are so keen to get rid of privates (yes they start with VAT, but Rayner was clear she wants to abolish them), so why to allow those wealthier kids to get backdoor access to quality education in grammars?

But those who go to indies will pay VAT.
So no escape really - if parents do well they should pay for their kids to be educated, right?

What aspiration? Keir defined their "hard working audience" very clearly - those who depend on public services and can't pay cheque if they fall on hard times. The rest are fair game

The truest way to be fair for all children sitting the 11+ for grammar schools would be to make it illegal to tutor before the exam.
I'm not exactly sure how that could be monitored though 😂

(Is "truest" a word 🤔)

I hope so. We should either have a grammar system in all areas or none at all.

It's just dominated by affluent parents who can afford the private prep or tutoring.

All or nothing.

Yes yes to this as well!

All those who have educated intelligent parents should be removed from said parents.
There must be equality for all

Yes all siblings have to do the 11plus the same as everyone else.
There is no entry to grammar without grades that fall within the accepted level.

If there’s a place at the lower accepted level and a ‘draw’ priority in some schools will be given to siblings. You can also contest the decision if a sibling doesn’t get in but still gets good grades. Keeping family together is important.

I had a friend that did this and got her second and third child into a grammar that her eldest was at even though it wasn’t their nearest grammar.

@nearlylovemyusername er no...... it's nothing to do with having intelligent parents or not. It's to do with having £££ to pay for a tutor from Year 4 going over and over practice tests so the child can do them in their sleep vs a child that will see the test for the first time on the day of the test.
Either every child who takes the test is provided with a practice book/worksheet package (same package for everyone) or no practice should be done at all and the children go in blind.

I’m guessing this is sarcasm

No. You just started a thread giving the false impression that this is going to happen, when in fact it is not.

But those intelligent educated parents can buy their DC books and do prep with them - how is this fair to bright DCs of thick /uneducated parents or those hardworking ones who don't have skills or time and can't prep their kids?

Education is available to all in this country for free, ie no fees. Just like we have a free nhs.

These services will not be means tested as they stand at the core of our welfare system.
So too, however, does freedom of choice. If someone wants to pay then fine. If someone doesn’t then fine.

Angela Rayner is an idiot and Labour will never be able to get rid of private schools. In order to do that they would need to change the law to have the ability to shut down at will all businesses and charities and take property and hundreds of years old financial supports, all tied up legally, given to the schools. They would have to revoke thousands of age old wills and ongoing donations. They will have to fight not just individual schools but estates, Religious Institutes including the Church of England. They declared a while back they would remove charitable status only to be told they simply can’t do that legally.

Education is free if you want it and everyone in this country has the right to use it.