Private vs state secondary choice

[Glitterfish]

I am really conflicted over the best choice of secondary school for my son. He has been accepted for both but I really can't make up my mind. WWYD?

The state secondary school nearby is excellent, great reports etc BUT huge numbers in the school. There is a bus practically from our door and he would be mixing with friends from the village (which is important as he went to a primary school a little further afield) and its mixed sex.

Or there is a private school about half an hour away (would have to drive), fantastic resources and opportunities, small numbers BUT single sex. It will also be long days (8.30 - 8) even as a day pupil as they have to stay for activities and study every day. Great sports facilities which he loves but its a rugby school and he isn't particularly interested in that but also has a golf pro etc (he's just taken to golf recently). Other school has very good sports facilities and range of sports but not to this level.

My son is a very friendly and chatty boy but also a bit immature for his age. He really liked both schools when we did the introduction days. We can afford the private school atm but may have to cut back on holidays etc.

I think a private school may give him an advantage later on in life but think the local state school might meet his immediate needs best - WWYD? Any advice welcome.

It sounds very finely balanced. Unless other posters lean very strongly towards state or private in principle they may feel able to give give you much of a steer.

On the financial side I’m sure you’re aware but in case not: have you factored in the likely addition of VAT to private school fees in addition to annual inflationary increases of 5% plus?

My kids are currently in state school but we’re firmly set on private for secondary. Re-reading your post, I think I may lean towards state however - good reputation, local friends, co-ed and easier journey to school all do add up.

That said, I am a firm believer in private - the state system is on its knees even though some schools do an amazing job on a shoestring. Class sizes are much bigger, teachers can only really teach the class as a whole with much less individual attention. Behaviour is likely to be worse with a certain amount of teaching time lost to dealing with (zoo keeping) disruptive behaviour. Typically this occurs less in independent schools and when it does occur it’s managed out (cue indignant posts from the anti independent brigade with tales of hooligans burning St Poshos Academy down while the local comp is full of angels…).

How do the academic results of the two compare? It’s interesting to check but it won’t tell you how your child will fare.

Where can you see your son being happier?

Have you checked the financial viability of the Indy as far as you can? It’s widely predicted that a number of smaller (and probably not so small) indies won’t be viable with the VAT increases. What would happen if it were to close - could your son then move to the state school or is there unlikely to be a place?

Assuming this is for September presumably you are aware that you are too late to give notice and will be liable for a term's fees now? Having said that you could get a lot of golf coaching for far less than school fees linger term. An 11 1/2 hour day plus travel sounds arduous. Is there Saturday school and/or matches ?

I wouldn’t worry too much about single sex. My nephew preferred co-ed but is now at an all-boys school and loves it. He doesn’t miss the girls at all, and I think it allows the nerdy and/or immature boys to grow up without ridicule or pressure to impress girls. His parents do want him to attend a mixed sixth form though, as by 16 they probably need to be interacting more with girls.

While long school days may seem arduous, presumably he’d be getting all of his homework and extracurricular activities done there, so when he’s home, it’s only to relax and sleep - which can probably be quite nice. That said, 8pm is an awfully late ending time!

The rugby aspect might concern me more, depending on how important the sport actually is at the school. I’d explore whether they have a non-contact option (if he doesn’t particularly like it I don’t think it’s worth the risk of head injury) and also how much the social hierarchy of the school depends on boys’ participation in rugby. We have friends with boys at a rugby school, and they’ve said it’s very much those who play are in and those who don’t are out.

you are definitely losing your deposit and liable for the autumn term fees if you back out of the independent school now.

when you paid the deposit you already decided you preferred it to the excellent state school so why are you unsure now?

if you genuinely are still dithering then you need to go and look round the state school and (if possible) the independent one again - no one on here can second guess what might suit your son.

We had a similar dilemma with DD1. Grammar vs Boarding private. We chose boarding because days were very full and she valued staying with friends. I assume 8 pm is after supper and prep. DD just relaxed and went to bed!

If you have to cut down on spending, what is the financial position over 5-7 years for you? Fees will go up. Can you afford the extras?

I don’t think private schools that are run of the mill give any advantage. You as parents give that. Your dc would, presumably, aim high wherever they went. Most jobs now aren’t choosing staff based on old school tie. Especially a school they don’t know. They want talent from all sources.

I would probably start in state. Move at 13 if it’s dire. Pay for golf lessons. Save like mad.

We also in similar position. Private all girls v excellent girls state. This is in central London. Really don’t know what to do either.

Look at the phone policy for each school - at the excellent state school the girls have their phones in their pockets and sneak a peak during lessons… obviously not suppose to and the phone is confiscated if they are seen. Private school the phones have to go in a locked pouch. Still seems like an awful lot of money when DD could just not take a phone…

how many of the boys board as a % at the private school? Given the long days, would you / your son consider weekly boarding? Is there not Saturday school as well?

Parents often over-estimate the impact of large classes, it isn't as significant as we think. Study after study has shown that the most important in-school factor behind educational achievement is the quality of the teachers/teaching – pupils actually do better in a large class with a great teacher than they do in a small class with a weak one.

The size of the school overall might be a valid concern, but only in the sense that your DS could get a bit more 'lost' as an individual in a huge school. There's little evidence that it would affect his results.

@thing47 I agree. Quality of teaching matters more and hopefully a great curriculum.

Sounds like he won’t benefit much from the private school academically. I would send him to the state and give him the money you would have spent on fees for uni/house deposit.

I agree 'big' isn't a negative. My child is in a big school, 250 intake - but they aren't all mixing with each other, the year group is split up. The opportunities in a big school are much better than a smaller school (I'm talking state here).
A school that your son can independently get to, where friends are going, with normal length days and it will be mixed in every sense of the word sounds perfect. And he will still have time to do other activities outside of school and chill. If you have a good state school why would you go for private?!

Given your state school option I wouldn't even be considering private. That is such a long day, plus the commute, he would spend his teenage years with no life outside school.

State school and private lessons. The amount we don’t spend on private school pays for ponies, ski holidays, music lessons, etc. DD got eight grade 9s at GCSE (the rest were 8s) and is currently doing a levels at another state school aiming for Cambridge.

I don’t think a private school is any better than a good state school if your child is bright and you have the commitment to take your child to their hobbies outside of school. The main arguments in favour of private school from friends seems to be 1. I can just drop them off at school on Monday morning and school do everything for me until Saturday lunchtime. 2. fear of the unknown (parents who went to private themselves and have heard horror stories of state schools - but who strangely don’t actually know anyone involved in any of these horror stories.)

Where schools are operating until later in the evening, you are getting everything in school. So clubs, sport, prep etc. Parents might need to do a late supper and then it’s bed. The timetables like that are not set up for dc living a long drive away and fees will reflect this level of involvement at school. Parents won’t ferry dc around to do extras because they don’t need to and clearly this model suits working parents who are not around for multiple ferrying duties. Often these schools won’t have Saturday school but will have sports fixtures. You have to buy in to what they offer.

If a shorter day, local friends and doing local sport etc is better, then clearly dc should go to the local school. Few DC get high numbers of grade 9s. Even in state grammars. So of course state cannot guarantee this so I think progress 8 is more reliable. Most people don’t have dc who get top grades so it’s important to work out what a school can do for the group your dc sits in, be that “average” or well above. Only travel to the private school if you totally buy into the ethos. Running away from state might not be sustaining for 7 years.

My Dc went Private for Secondary but only because we didnt have a decent State option.
I am not sure it has given them any advantage over what a good State school would have and I would never choose single sex unless I really had no other option.
In your shoes I would probably go State

I would absolutely choose the state school, if I cared about my son's happiness or having a close relationship with them. Being at school 8-8 with a half hour commute is ridiculous, they might as well be boarding for the interactions you'll have with them. Single sex would be a major downside for me, they prioritise a sport he doesn't care about and it doesn't sound like your son needs the academic side. I actually don't see this as a tough choice at all.

I think single sex would be the deciding factor. They are really bad for socialisation.

If comfortably affordable then private school would always be my choice.

As others have said, if you withdraw now from private you will lose deposit and the first term's fees.

That’s really interesting. Can I ask why “always”?

@Tiredalwaystired Just from what I've seen. I have a mix of friends from private and state and friends who send their kids to private and state.
What I've noticed about the privately schooled adults and kids is that they come across as confident, well spoken, articulate and engaged.
They seem to do better in life more easily.

The state schooled kids had to really knuckle down and work more independently. This obviously highlights a good work ethic and resilience but just seems to be harder for them to achieve.

I know there are exceptions and I personally know a privately schooled person who can't hold down a job because they were spoon fed and given everything in life and a state schooled uni dropout who is now pretty senior in a global organisation and is doing amazingly well.
Generally speaking though, if I could have sent mine to private comfortably, I would have.

But how do you know who has been privately or state educated when you meet them? I mean, as an adult I have no idea of the secondary educational background of my colleagues or peers. We may talk about university, yes but never school. I have come across hundreds of articulate, intelligent, confident people in my life and I’m pretty sure they haven’t all had a private education.

I think it’s sad that you think that spending money guarantees a “better” child. Let’s make it clear, I don’t begrudge those who choose to go private with good reason (SEN provision or terrible alternative options) but to dismiss state education as a second rate alternative is just looking down on those without the means. Especially in cases where the results from the local school tell you otherwise.

Do you really judge all the adults you meet based on where they were between the ages of 11 and 18?

@Tiredalwaystired you're implying I judge adults solely based on their education, meaning I judge state schooled adults more negatively? I'd be judging myself and my own kids as adults in the same vein then.

There's a reason why people choose to pay for a private education. People make sacrifices for this and it's not without reason. They're hoping their kids will be more successful as adults because that's what the outcomes tell them. There is evidence there.

I've already explained I've seen exceptions myself. I am speaking in general terms and also now with some knowledge of my kid's state school (which is actually a good state school but has issues) and my friend's kid's private schools.

But how do you know who has been privately or state educated when you meet them? Well, the overprivileged mouthy teens I had the misfortune to have to steward at a sports event once were certainly very confident when they told me ‘we’re from Radley!’ At the top of their voices whilst patronising me and calling me ‘my dear.’ I take people as I find them, and work with colleagues and customers from all walks of life, but I must confess I would actually pay to keep my kids away from a school like that! Confidence and self assurance can be overcooked and be rather obnoxious. Why would you pay for that?

Private. Without a doubt.
State schools are losing teachers fast.

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/secondary/5071552-staff-turnover-in-private-schools