UKMT maths challenges - how to?

[justanotherdaduser]

Would like to understand how children who do well in the UKMT maths challenges (junior, intermediate etc) prepare, whether they prepare at all etc

DD (year 8) is okayish in maths - in top set and get usually 85% and over in class exams, but not innately brilliant (in my opinion)

I used to teach her maths in primary, specifically for 11plus preparation, but have stopped since end of year 6.

The teaching in class is focused on breadth first, quickly moving from one topic to another, not spending enough time on any one topic to develop deeper understanding. I think the school aims to iterate over these same topics repeatedly for the next few years before GCSE.

For example, I think most of the class can solve simultaneous equation of two variables, but will probably struggle with a third variable and likely to struggle with a complexly worded problem where sentences may not easily be translated into simultaneous equations.

So DD struggles with the UKMT challenges - about the first 50% of the questions are doable, she finds the later half harder.

I feel there is benefit in doing these papers - encourages out of box thinking, helps in developing much deeper understanding of the topic, builds resiliency etc. I am encouraging her to do them seriously (school makes all top set students take the UKMT challenges), but also conflicted that maybe I shouldn't push too hard because unsure whether these problem solving skills are meant to come naturally.

Question is - if your DC does (or did) well in these challenges, did they prepare specifically for such types of questions? Or was school work enough for them to do well?

Same here, also got a silver. I didn't even know my daughter was sitting it!

So happy to see this thread. I am borderline allergic to maths but somehow DS is maths mad, and appears to have a natural gift (he achieved a silver in the JMC last year in year 5 - his school enters all children in year 5 and 6 into the PMC and JMC).

He’s keen to do well, and has been doing a little work on Dr Frost. I appreciate the JMC is in a few days but I wonder whether anyone could recommend a good book/site for the JMC’s geometry style questions? He finds certain shape/space style questions tricky but no issues with any of the other topics. He has dyspraxia, so that might be the reason but I’m not entirely sure. I don’t really know where to start on JMC appropriate resources. Thanks so much in advance

Summer Mine are much older now but at that age they both loved Mathletics and also the UKMT site has past JMC papers including solutions as well as books can buy. Mine didn't use those until later but they can work through them by themselves. One got half eaten by rabbit but it was the only school type work my asd DS enjoyed.

@Penguinsa - thank you so much, I’ll check mathletics and the UKMT resources out - really appreciate the recommendations.

Haha! I hope the rabbit enjoyed it!

I think the main thing is one they enjoy and do voluntarily but that's what my two liked. Such a great organisation.

Couldn’t agree more - just want him to enjoy it. Thank you again!

They didn't do any prep at all. At various points, they got gold and I think did kangaroo.

I didn't realise it was actually a "thing" until I saw this thread! Daughter has been doing it through school the past few years although I don't think she has done it this year. She usually tells us after she has done it. No extra practice or anything. I know she got in the top 10% the first year she did it. Have no idea what that means or how she's done since I don't think, I must ask her...

For most people it isn't 'a thing'. DD's school runs it in stealth mode, no advanced notice of tests for instance.

I asked here to understand whether it'll be a good idea to make it 'a thing' for DD.

After some searching around, it seems there are people who do take it seriously every year and prepare for it. Especially those aspiring to compete at higher levels.

That's really interesting. I assume that's what DD's school do too, it's never been made into anything, I think they just call some of the kids, stick them in a room, she does some maths and then wanders off again... She usually tells me weeks later or sometimes when she gets a result. But she's a bit scatty so that's the norm for most things! 😂

They nearly all get at least bronze and silver ( at my dcs school anyway) The ones with natural talent get through to olympiad.

In our London grammar (very competitive) the boys egg each other on and I think they practise with each other. Tend to be over 10 a year to the Olympiads across the year groups too. They work together and are proud of their friends who get through.
Parents don’t need to get involved - teachers and boys are plenty motivated. Now that so much is online too - if the child wants to do it all they need is an internet connection. So I don’t really know what mine did - they were always self driven when it came to Maths. And they seem to treat it like a competitive sport.

And I have to also say that for my DD who is also really quite good at Maths she finds the competitive spirit some boys have in top maths sets quite off putting. I don’t know if that is specific to her or more typical in general for lots of girls who are also good at Maths. So I do wonder whether all girls schools and coed schools approach things differently.

@Barleypilaf absolutely agree with you

Can you guide which books n resources to use. My son is in year 7 he got through kangaroo last year . I think he has potential but we want to guide him to practice as that will improve his score . Any help will be much appreciated

at my kids' school they just did this in yr7 without telling the kids, or certainly without telling the parents, that it was going to happen.

my less than perfect understanding of it is that the second round [kangaroo?] is sufficiently difficult that almost any kid who's not capable of getting through the first round just on native wit [i.e. with no prep] won't have a prayer of doing anything much in the second round. mine did the kangaroo last year, we did try a practice paper beforehand, my very foggy memories of it suggest that there were at least some of the questions [towards the end?] that he'd have been likely to get no marks at all on.

i've got mixed feelings about this sort of thing, i do think it's a shame, feels inherited from the US system or maybe old school English public schools in the 'muscular Christianity' tradition, that UK comprehensive schools' recognition for real academic chops comes a lot later and seems a lot less wholehearted than it does for e.g. musical or especially sporting achievement, but I do also wonder whether it's the healthiest thing in the world to have 12 year olds who are, if we're talking about kids who do really well in these challenges, likely destined for great A levels etc anyway, sweating really hard in order to try and really excel in things like this at such a young age.

Do you tell good football players, gymnasts, chess players, musicians etc to not sweating really hard at 4,5,6,7,8 years old in order to really excel?

A level are for the above average kids, not a test for the brightest.

have never come across parents or kids taking this so seriously? I always thought it was a test of innate mathematical ability as really the questions are so off the wall that there's not really any way to prepare.

great news for kids who do well - am not sure it really counts for anything though?

there are certainly children who prepare for these, especially among those who qualify for follow on rounds. I think it is great if your daughter wants to prepare. It is valuable in itself as it trains problem - solving which is useful for many endeavours and also job interviews. I don't know why so many here comment saying don't bother, it literally trains logic and problem-solving, how is that not worth doing.

First step I suggest is going through past papers, they are all available on the UKMT website for free. Second step is go to the Dr Frost website, they have many of the past tests available for practice online and if pressed for time, for regular practice you can do "abridged papers" where they do just 10-15 out of the 25 questions, so it doesn't take an hour.

It's also worthwile practicing some basic knowledge that comes up a lot in the challenges via the Dr Frost website. Prime numbers come up a lot, she can memorise all prime numbers up to 100, that is quite useful and can save her time. The questions are heavy on geometry as well, again she can train her knowledge of angles.

If she finds 1 - 15 doable but questions 16-25 impossible, she could spend some time looking at problems 16-21 from each past papers, spend some time solving them and then look at the solutions and try to understand how to solve these.

Good luck!

And to those who say it's all natural ability - the truth is in many grammar schools and especially selective private schools, a large part of the Maths problems they do in class, especially in the top sets are UKMT style. I asked DD's school how they differ in terms of the Maths sets they told me they have five Maths sets and they theoretically all cover the same curriculum but in the lowest set you'd do 90% basics maybe 10% UKMT style and in the top set more like 10-20% basics (bc the kids there know the basics already) and 80-90% UKMT style problem solving. So don't think her score without preparation while attending a comprehensive school reflects her "natural ability". There are thousands of kids who take these challenges and are very well prepared. DD took the JMC at her prep school in y5 already, she is taking it again this week in y6. By the time she is in Year 8 like your daughter, it will be her 4th JMC competition. She really enjoys them.

Well to get into some top private and grammar schools, you have to be able to solve some of these style of questions and show that you have attempted them. I remember mine all used a book series called 11 plus Superselective Maths when we did the 11 plus years ago and that got them started into this kind of thinking and explained the answers.
However, some of the boys at the boys superselective grammar are both inherently talented and inherently competitive and driven. I remember a conversation with one explaining to me that he was applying to a specific college at Cambridge because he wanted X academic to be his tutor and he had been reading and following his papers for years and to him this person was a celebrity. This kid always went far in this type of competition too.

What a refreshing post. What I was trying to say also, that those who go onto follow on rounds are not all 'geniuses' with crazily extraordinary 'innate' abilities (there may be some of course). Sure, being naturally good at maths helps, but many kids prepare either, as @ncsurrey22 says indirectly through school due to the set they're in, or others attend maths circles or have parents who do maths problems/quizzes with them (especially those, I can imagine, who have done maths or similar themselves).

It's much better to be honest about these things - most things in life takes effort and hard work.

This from someone whose DC is very, very good at maths but just doesn't want to put the extra effort in and, in our family, we prioritise other things (e.g. sports etc). Every family is different.

"as really the questions are so off the wall that there's not really any way to prepare"

Seriously, have you looked at the questions? They can certainly be improved through learning and practice, much like any other competitive endeavor. It’s clear that UKMT designs them to broaden participation in Maths, improve interest and aptitude, rather than just testing innate ability.

You do need innate ability, but once you have that it’s definitely possible to prepare. Just consider it like music or sport. I’ll never be a top runner, but that doesn’t mean that Usain Bolt didn’t need to train.

DS consistently got silvers or gold in his state primary/comp with no preparation, but has got into an Olympiad with more practice. There are a lot of tricks and repeat methods so of course you get better at problem-solving with practice.

It is also useful for university and sixth form applications to demonstrate interest and ability, as well as practice for the types of maths questions that may be asked at interview.

Shrugs - my kids got through to kangaroo a few times and it was fun looking at the questions to see how it had gone - so yes I have seen them....

They are quite whacky questions designed to test ability to think on their feet. Sorry I honestly never realised people would prepare for this- thought it was just something mathematically able kids enjoyed doing?

Great that some kids get into the Olympiads. Just never realised people put so much emphasis on it. DS certainly never mentioned any of that in his engineering application....

I agree... I very much think that kids, especially kids with a strong mathematical bent, are going to sort of end up spending most of their lives poring over various forms of numbers, problems, and whatnot, and that whatever children have got left of childhood would be best spent on activities that have more obvious advantages in terms of physical & mental health, socialisation, and so on.

I very much doubt that universities place any real weight on performance in these competitions. If they did it would play hugely into the hands of the grammar and especially private schools. A levels have so far always been the real currency, and even for the brightest kids, getting AAA*+ including further maths is a decent challenge without needing to have sunk many youthful hours into prepping for 'fun' maths competitions.

in the above post I meant straight A-stars.