Secondary school decision - Hammersmith schools

[valvalm]

Good morning all,
First time poster here so forgive me if I don't get all the acronyms right.
Our daughter has been lucky enough to get some offers for secondary school after 11+.
We went to the different offers holder event and we are trying to make the right choice for her.
We are left with SPGS, Godolphin and Latymer Upper. We rejected the other offers last week as less convenient in terms of commute.
I understand that they are all fantastic schools. Obviously Latymer is a co-ed school which is a big differentiating factor - and probably the reason why we won't go for it in the end. My husband is not a big advocate of that for the moment.
Do people have views though on ending GCSE? I understand SPGS will do that soon as well?

Can someone give me differentiators between SPGS and Godolphin please? What I get from talking to parents / friends around me is that SPGS is over academically, number 1 in all leagues for a number of year and it should be a no brainer.
Looking at GCSE results though it looks like we are only talking a few girls having 9 vs 8? Am I correct?
The things that worry me at SPGS at the moment is that it seems to lack diversity in terms of ethnicities. We are of mixed background and when we went for the offer holder there, the vast majority of the girls were of Asian ethnicity,

Please help me!

Thank you and congratulations on making your decision!! I am keen for LU. I realize now, my dc is more keen for Dulwich. But, I think in the end we will go for LU (once I convince dh and ds). I think the distance just does not make sense and not great to rely on the coach service forever.

Gosh- do you live in the middle of Dulwich and LU as a both a long way apart!? We discounted it as I think the bus left around 7am from our area! Although DS is up at the crack of dawn for rowing a lot and the Dulwich boat house is quite near so that would have been handy!

Agree with so much of what you say, including GCSE. Would you mind sharing where your second DC attended?

We live closer to Latymer. Dulwich would be a 45 minute coach ride. I think the pick up is 7:20am from our area. Latymer would be 20 minute bike ride or 35 mins via tube or 40 mins public bus. My issue is relying on the school coach only to get to and from school. Also, the Saturday games at Dulwich would be tricky too. Latymer, ds could get to their sports grounds on his own.

We havent been able to decide between KGS and SPGS.

Another SPGS parent here, and mine is applying for Unis next year.
While I understand the general intent of what LU is trying do, I do wonder how it will work and how it'll affect their school overall. I'd not chose to have my child be a Guinea pig for an untested system.
LU's incoming cohort last year and in the years to come will be of lower quality, they'll struggle to attract and keep good teachers (as someone already mentioned). It's unclear what this will do to the overall results. The new system will inevitably disadvantage some students for Oxford applications - small as the number of affected students may be.

What happened this year with some SPGS kids applying to Medicine at Oxford is terrible. Not specifically because some kids did not get to the interview stage - this happens every year. The shocking part was that Oxford explicitly stated that the applicants were penalized for having a smaller number of GCSEs than is expected of the SPGS-type of school. Oxford only counted 8 of the applicants' GCSEs - (despite them actually taking 11-12)

My issue with it is MISINFORMATION by the SPGS. People come to these schools and pay a lot of money with an expectation of provision of certain standard of education. As it is - it's harder for private school kids vs state school applicants. These kids took school directed GCSEs believing what SPGS told them. At a minimum, school should have advised these students to consider Cambridge over Oxford. Instead, SPGS denied accountability and continues to misinform the parents of younger years.

Oxford is very clear on how they assess candidates, and GCESs count (more specifically, 9/8 grades and number of them). It is most pronounced in Medicine, where there is a restriction on international students - so competition is mostly between UK students:

From Oxford Medicine Admissions report:
"Initial shortlisting was based on a combined UCAT and GCSE score (the latter only if available and if the candidate had not sat their GCSEs between summer 2020-summer 2021)." - [the exclusion of covid years was because Oxford does not trust teacher's grades and treated those years differently]
"The mean number of A*/9/8s at GCSE for all applicants was 9.0; this rose to 10.1 for those shortlisted and 10.3 for applicants receiving offers"

-- in the admissions chart for Medicine - it is quite clear that only a small handful of kids with 8 GCSEs were interviewed/admitted.
-- You can of course apply with 9 GCSEs as someone here said - but the contextual data will matter in that case...
Medicine: Shortlisting Process and Admissions Statistics — University of Oxford, Medical Sciences Division

In other subjects, where there is no restriction on international students - additional score from GCSEs can help UK applicants get to an interview stage. It is applicable to all Oxford subjects that have additional testing - and applies to humanities and STEM subjects. For example:

From Oxford Physics Admission report:
R-score pre-interview = PAT mark + 10 x cGCSE
A score of 70 gets you automatically shortlisted for an interview. Scores above 70 are mostly achieved by Chinese/Hong Kong/Singapore applicants that come from a system with extreme focus on written exams, hence their scores.

After the interviews - all applicants are rated on the totality of data:
Post-Interview R-score = (PAT mark out of 100) + 10 x cGCSE + 2 x (Interviews out of 100)

The extra points that UK applicants can get from cGCSEs are small, but still significant as to make a difference between getting to the interview (and indeed an offer) or not. The absence of GSCE - takes away possibility of these extra points. It's that simple.

[cGCSE - Contextualised GCSE 9/8/A score provides information about how well an applicant has performed at GCSE compared to other applicants to Oxford, given the performance of the school at which they took their GCSEs. The cGCSE score is calculated by comparing the achieved number of 9/8/A at GCSE to the expected number. Scores are expressed as standard deviation and will typically be in the range -3 to +3]
AdmissionsReportDec2024.pdf

I know that when you are choosing a place at 11+ - these considerations seem far away and academic. And possibly irrelevant. But when you child gets to the phase of applying to universities - you realize that this is the final test of the quality of education they receive at school. And things get into perspective.

Of course - Oxbridge admission is not the only/main criteria for assessing the quality of education your child receives at secondary school. But Uni destinations do matter for future careers. And in these schools, kids do push themselves really hard and aim high. It is as ever competitive for private school applicants vs state and vs internationals - (appropriately so, I make sure my kids know they are privileged on multiple dimensions). The school we chose for our kids needs to help them get to their destination, not make it harder. And - being transparent with parents is important. As a parent, you do need to go into it all with your eyes open.

I am happy I do not need to make a decision about LU. On balance, for my specific child - SPGS has given her a good and wide education, she has grown and matured. And she does have her 10 A*s at "proper" GCSEs - if she chooses to apply to Oxford next year.

In high-performing schools, students are some out picked for some universities entrance based on an above-average number of GCSE subjects against peers. I can see how this competitive trend might escalate, with girls eventually taking 13, 14, or even 15 GCSE subjects to stand out.

Meanwhile, in less competitive schools, where the average is 8-9 subjects, top performers with 10 subjects will standout automatically with much less pressure. This indeed creates a two-tier system for entrance, even within private schools.

@LndnMom do you know if Maths and further maths are counted as 2 GCSE or only one? also does GCSE that are being sit early count for admission?

Math and Further Maths are indeed 2 GCSEs. And I think early-GCSEs do count - I am guessing you had an extra language GCSE?
it gets a little murky if your child in fact a native speaker in language X and took that extra GCSE in Y7.... But the majority of the SPGSs dual language kids take their extra language GCSE just a year before - and that definitely counts.

@LndnMom thanks so much, do all girls at SPGS take further maths? or do they do additional maths (I think more equivalent to an A level)

@Lolakath19

Correction - Maths and Ad Maths are two separate GCSEs, different board.
In Top set Maths - most take it. In Middle set - they are taught it and some chose to take it. Don't know about bottom set.
Generally - if your DD is thinking of Further Maths at A-levels - she need to take Ad Maths. Or - to say it differently - she should be at the level that is taking Ad Maths anyway, as Further Maths is challenging as is, and most kids in the class will have already covered Add Maths material that Further Maths build upon.

That said - most schools don't teach Add Maths. And some kids do go on to study Further Maths. I guess the difference is that at SPGS Further Maths classroom - most other kids would have taken Ad Maths - which changes the speed they go.

Also - SPGS covers all A-level Maths in one year, and covers all Further Maths curriculum in the 2nd year. This means a lot of math, and at rather high speed. So - one needs to be able to keep up

If this is the case, then what is the point of choosing a school like SPGS if the dc will have a better chance at getting Oxford with a less academic school (bc less competition within the school?)?

Because it's not this simplistic. And GSCSs only add a relatively small number of points to the total score (which, in some cases, can make a big difference, but still)

As you see - Oxford puts high emphasis on their own tests - and performance on those are correlated with your predicted A-levels. So - quality of A-level teaching (which builds on the curriculum of the early years) is important. In addition, interviews carry a really high weight - and those are not general conversations about life - but in case of STEM these are rather full on tests of one math/physics/chemistry problem after another.

So - a less competitive school will have your child progress and study at slower speed, with a lot less challenges and possibility of extensions. Over the years it'll accumulate - and the resulting difference of overall performance for Oxford applications will not be comparable.
There is a reason why appr 40% of kids from Westminster, SPGS, SPS do end up at Oxbridge. It's not one thing - it's the selection; the teaching throughout; the extensions. Smart kids build off each other and this generates an environment that enriches their learning and progress.

That said - a really bright kid that is self driven from a less academic school - will also get there. They'll compare favourably to the rest of the school - and self-propel their learning of the subject they are interested in.

But it's hard to know if yours will be that kid. So - parents tend to go for the school that best matches their child's ability - so that they can be in a place that will provide the opportunities and appropriate challenges.

I think a few points are important: firstly, the child needs to be academically capable regardless of which school they choose.

Secondly, both parents and the child need to have a strong focus on Oxbridge and specific subjects for these matters.

Thirdly, and this is a harder to prove point, certain group of parents believe that a more competitive and selective environment would be more suitable for their children to develop and growth. And of course some more casualties produced.

As a result, you would see parents with similar mindsets clustering at some highly selective schools.

40% of the kids from some London super selective schools goes to Oxbridge but what subjects? If Harris academy gets you in Physics or Chemistry to Oxford and the private schools is PPE? That would impact which place DC will flourish depending on their interest. Or there are some families that will ask for only Oxbridge, whichever subject? So a bilingual family can ask for Chinese literature or Asian studies. For example, a Singapore International student not top in their year cohort and country/ Singapore exam standard is more likely to get a place in Oxbridge in English rather than Engineering or Maths.

Notorious ones being Classic, History of Arts, Music, Asian history and studies and linguistics.

@SamPoodle123 - being able to cycle plus tube and bus routes have been a game changer for us! Makes life so much easier.

I can't quite understand the point of Hawaii post and know nothing about Harris Academy - but if you look at SPGS - a large number of girls do apply for STEM subjects - Engineering, Physics, Chemistry, Medicine, Maths. PPE - is actually not as popular at the girls school, and I think is becoming increasingly hard to get into for the boys from Westminster...

As to the fact that Classics, History and Music are more the sort of subjects that private school kids apply for - it is a function of what those kids are interested in, and the fact that their families are wealthy enough as to not worry about their job prospects.

At the time of applications - parent's do not "ask" for anything. Kids need to show interest, ability and some achievements in the field they select. And yes - acceptance rates for those courses are higher than for the more competitive courses. But I am not sure what it really proves.

I do not know about the Singaporean students' chances. There are certainly a high number of Chinese students from mainland, HK and Singapore in Engineering and Maths. But to get into Oxford English course - you do need to have a deep interest in the subject and be able to demonstrate it to the professors that interview you. So - if your child finds talking about and analyzing books easier than to score high enough on PAT, MAT or the other STEM admissions tests - then maybe they should study a humanities subject...

@LndnMom

a large number of girls do apply for STEM subjects - Engineering, Physics, Chemistry, Medicine, Maths. PPE - is actually not as popular at the girls schools.

Not uncommon for girls in a lot of coeducation schools, sixth form or colleges. In terms of proportion.

As to the fact that Classics, History and Music are more the sort of subjects that private school kids apply for - it is a function of what those kids are interested in, and the fact that their families are wealthy enough as to not worry about their job prospects.

I agree. The point is that the 40% you quoted also includes a portion of these subjects, and higher proportion compared to some other schools. I didn't say it was a bad thing; it's simply a characteristic.

At the time of applications - parent's do not "ask" for anything.

From my observation, some parents certainly 'expect' specific outcomes and will make considerable efforts to ensure that happens. There certainly elements of peer pressure too.

It is a fact that Oxbridge acceptance rate for STEM subjects is much lower than English subjects - this is a reflection of supply and demand.

“One of the most exciting aspects of our new curriculum model will be our ability to assess our students in a more relevant and meaningful way. By assessing work through alternative methods such as vivas, group work tasks, open-book assessments, presentations, online testing

This reform will prepare students better for the world of work and for life outside the school gates. We will avoid the stress and anxiety of perceived high-stakes exams at a time when teenagers are still undergoing brain development and huge changes at the age of 16. And of course we are aware of mental health concerns in young people. ”

Genuine questions here.. Are they also planning about changing their 11+ admission process too? It would make sense to ditch the current style of written exams for 11 (as well as 16) and go for more meaningful alternatives like vivas, open book assessments, or presentations to find students who will really excel in their ethos. Maybe they’ll even decide to eliminate exams for 11+ as they’re concerned about the mental health of 16-year-olds. It seems only logical that they’d also care about the well-being of 10-year-olds.

@PreplexJ

yes, 40% acceptance rate to Oxbrige from some of the top selective Private schools includes Humanities and STEM. And some degrees are harder to get in than others. But - as much as I tend to value STEM degrees more myself, given my background - I still have respect for a hard working kid who wants to study History or Classics.
My DD, for e.g. - has a chance at Oxbridge if she applied for Chemistry/Physics/Engineering, possibly Maths. But she has NO chance if she applied for English, despite English's higher acceptance rate. So she'll be applying for something that she actually wants to study.

Yes - there are parents that want their kids to go to Oxbridge, and they do what they can to make that happen. But there is only so much they can do. And in the end of the day, it's all up to the actual child's efforts and determination. As to peer pressure - at least at SPGS - it's more internal "pressure" - ambition? These kids know many have a good chance - so they try. And January offer days for Oxford and Cambridge are stressful days in the Six Form block. Even the 1st year A-level class senses the tension.

These kids, or these parents did not create the society where best named University leads to better careers, with all that it means. This is just how things are. We all strive to something.

@Newuseridforthis lol

@LndnMom

I still have respect for a hard working kid who wants to study History or Classics.

While I have full respect for that, it does not change the facts or the inherent characteristics discussed.

But there is only so much they can do. And in the end of the day, it's all up to the actual child's efforts and determination.

It is not entirely up to effort and determination; certain subjects are certainly conditioned by family or environment for many reasons. Without support and influence, some kids would never consider or have interests these options or possibilities. Outside of Oxbridge, there is a clear increasing trend in US applications that demonstrates this too.

Some parents might not be the ones creating the illusion that a better-named university leads to better careers, but some certainly strongly believe in it and have less regard for suitability.

I am genuinely confident that Latymer's 7+ and 11+ reform is imminent because otherwise their justification for the GCSE reform would come across as hypocritical and self-serving.

Currently, they make six-year-olds, never mind ten-year-olds, all to sit in a large hall in rows and rows, all facing forward, to compose a creative story with a clear beginning, middle, and end, while incorporating ambitious vocabulary and language techniques—all within a mere 20-30 minutes. This, alongside a challenging math paper and a written comprehension where answers should be given in full sentences, frankly seems far more age-inappropriate, mental health destroying and unfit for the modern world than GCSE.

Undoubtedly, Latymer can see that their 7+ 11+ system is in even more urgent need of reform, in line with their stated values.

Most profound of this example I see over and over being grammar school parents' 'inspiration and encouragement' for STEM degree. Medical school is often seen as the holy grail, with other STEM disciplines and Economics alternatively regarded as solid pathways to lucrative careers, especially in finance.

Institutions like Oxbridge or Harvard, one would hope they know what they want .

Exactly this.