Secondary school decision - Hammersmith schools

[valvalm]

Good morning all,
First time poster here so forgive me if I don't get all the acronyms right.
Our daughter has been lucky enough to get some offers for secondary school after 11+.
We went to the different offers holder event and we are trying to make the right choice for her.
We are left with SPGS, Godolphin and Latymer Upper. We rejected the other offers last week as less convenient in terms of commute.
I understand that they are all fantastic schools. Obviously Latymer is a co-ed school which is a big differentiating factor - and probably the reason why we won't go for it in the end. My husband is not a big advocate of that for the moment.
Do people have views though on ending GCSE? I understand SPGS will do that soon as well?

Can someone give me differentiators between SPGS and Godolphin please? What I get from talking to parents / friends around me is that SPGS is over academically, number 1 in all leagues for a number of year and it should be a no brainer.
Looking at GCSE results though it looks like we are only talking a few girls having 9 vs 8? Am I correct?
The things that worry me at SPGS at the moment is that it seems to lack diversity in terms of ethnicities. We are of mixed background and when we went for the offer holder there, the vast majority of the girls were of Asian ethnicity,

Please help me!

any suggestion on what they cover in SPGS 2nd round in fun activity which is led by their teaching staff and older students?

We are facing the same decision for our DD that OP faced last year - LU, G&L or SPGS? I found this thread generally helpful (especially as for some reason the main thread for 11+ 2025 has been closed by MN a few days ago). Have there been any developments in the past year that would change the situation materially with any of these schools?

I don't know how to link threads but there's at least 2 other threads about London 11+. Lots of posts today about the offers received

Would you mind telling me what the names of the other threads are so I can do a search? I am not a frequent user of MN and my searches yield pretty random results ... Thank you!!

@RaspberryCake it's called
London grammar and private senior school entry 2025 part 2

Thank you!!

This popped up again as I commented last year.
I think you can't go wrong with these offers. I am still (and even more doubtful) about LU's cancelling GCSEs though. SPGS is not planning to do so - the HM is part of Independent Schools group that is thinking/discussing it, but no plans are yet made.

As I know people who are going through university admissions this year - it appears that the School-directed SPGS courses ARE NOT universally accepted as equivalent to GSCEs. It is clear, that for the more competitive subjects Oxford does NOT in fact count them as GCSEs. It is possible that other Unis have a different position - but the School-directed courses are not treated the same on UCAS applications. So - an applicant from Latimer who has not got GSCEs on their application will be penalised - as in not get the points that Oxford gives for GSCEs when they calculate a score that decides if a candidate gets an interview. And for some it may mean getting through to interview or not. (As was the case with someone at SPGS this year)
This is only relevant for certain STEM subjects and Medicine at Oxford. And it is the way things are currently - who knows what it'll be when in a few years.

As someone who is thinking of your choice at 11+ - the above may be something that seems far away. But it'll be there sooner than you think.

But in general - between SPGS and G&L - I'd go on a feeling you have. Yes - many people would just choose by ranking - driven by A-level results and Oxbridge admissions, which are higher at SPGS.

But being in SPGS is not a guarantee to get into Oxbridge, even if about 40% do every year - which leaves 60% who do not.

G&L does have the IB and for some it is clearly a better choice, especially if you are applying to the US.

To people who ask about these choices, and especially if they are worried about SPGS's reputation of "hard and competitive" - I normally say that if your daughter did not have to be heavily tutored and got through SPGS's selection - she most like will do well there. It's a right school for a kid who is naturally bright and self-driven. It's full of kids who come from being on top of their class in their primary - which can be jarring for them at the start. The school is not competitive in a way people imagine - I think more than anything these kids are pushing themselves to achieve the results they know the school delivers, rather than competing with the kids in the class. For some - it can, of course, be stressful.

Godolphin - in my understanding is a little less intense in this way. But your child can do well and achieve their potential in either of these schools...

For the self-directed course (which has quite a large number of entries), some public rankings aggregate these results alongside GCSEs/IGCSEs and compare them to other schools that only take GCSEs.

This does not reflect the quality on a like-for-like basis.

Agree. And this is why I can't see how one school - LU - can change this system and get the universities to trust their "new curriculum" results as there will be no external body that ensures comparability.
Granted - they will still be doing A-levels. So - they'll still be applying to Unis with regular predicted grades. But for the degrees where there is a requirement of a particular level at GCSEs - this will be an issue.

Some really good insights Sashya. Thank you for taking the time to write and share. Our family might have confirmation bias on your LU points and think it will be next to go as we narrow down choices

This echoes what our prep school's head carefully suggested. It's clear that this year there are a lot more LU offers at our prep school and I know that all the families (bar one undecided) are accepting other places...

In this climate, I think it's definitely wiser to adhere to state qualifications and the common currency when applying to UK universities as a home student. Students from private schools already face challenges during the admissions process. Although universities recognise different international qualifications, these align with standards set in other countries, and those students incur higher overseas tuition fees..

I'll also add that when for ex Oxford adds extra points for GCSEs to the total score the applicant has achieved in an entry test (say PAT, MAT, etc) - it is a way that helps the UK students compete with international students that are often really well trained to pass those entry tests.

For eg - in PAT this year (a test that is used for Engineering and Physics) - 75%+ of the top 100 scores were from international students. The extra 10 points that UK students could get if they have 8/9s for their 10 GSCEs - really makes a difference, as it gets a lot of UK applicants over the threshold needed for interviews.
Under this system - Latymer students would be at a great disadvantage.

So - I don't see how LU manages to convince the new parents that their gamble is worthwhile. Maybe it'll all work out somehow, but personally I'd be really wary.

That said - a friend chose LU last year. More for co-ed and extra-curricular opportunities, and because they don't know if their child will be applying in the UK, Europe or the USA. She just took a chance.

I don't see how UK universities can legitimately discriminate against LU students for not having GCSEs. LU have consulted extensively with UK universities on this change and got comfortable that it wouldn't put their students at a disadvantage.

Secondary education should not only be a means to an end, I.e. getting into a particular university. It represents 7 crucial years of learning and development for young people. From my perspective it makes sense to maximise the learning and skills developed over this period rather than focussing on rote learning for exams (and then another set 2 years later).

I'm pretty sure that LU's reforms will result in better A level grades as they are able to go deeper into subjects without the confines of the GCSE system. And it should be a more enjoyable and less stressful experience for the students, which is also very important from my perspective.

Coming back to this thread as have a DC at LU and very happy with the school. They won't be affected by the curriculum reform but I'm all for it!
They haven't just decided on a whim to do it and have spoken at length to universities etc over the last few years about what they are doing. Cambridge admissions appear on the information video for a start.
A friend of my DC ( not at LU) took no GCSEs due to a health crisis. They have still managed to get an offer at Oxford after doing well in the admissions test and interview. Obviously not the same circumstances but Universities are perfectly capable of assessing candidates and know what kind of students they've had from schools in prior years.

I don’t think anyone is suggesting that the UK universities are going to discriminate against one school’s students.

And in my experience with UCAS applications this year - different universities use GCSEs grades differently. Cambridge - as is widely known - does not put the same emphasis on GCSEs. Oxford uses them as a small addition to the candidate’s score. Entrance test - and interviews count for a lot more.
And I have no idea what other Unis do, as they don’t describe their admissions process in detail.
It is not discrimination to not give LU students points for GSCEs - if they dont have GCSEs… This is only relevant for some courses at Oxford - so not sure that they would be changing their admissions process just for a few kids from LU.

I can also say - as my child did GCSEs and now doing A-levels - her years pre-GCSEs were not focused on rote learning for exams. At least at SPGC - they often go quite quickly through the requited material in Y10/11 and have lots of time for extension and developing additional skills. They also take 13 GSCEs -
a lot more than the usual 9 or 10 - so can learn useful skills in school directed ‘new skills’ courses - like Creative Technologies, eyc.

Also - the experience of taking exams is useful, in my opinion. A-levels would be even more stressful - if this was the first time a child was exposed to external examinations.

A-level results at LU are unlikely to change, btw. There is nothing that prevents LU from going ‘deeper’ into material even now. Other schools already do it - Certainly SPGS, also Westminster where, for eg, kids get lots of going deeper and sideway extensions in the first year of GCSEs, while quickly covering the required material in the 2nd year.

All university do contextualised offers - specifically to make sure that the bright candidates like your friend's DC get a chance.

But as to putting blind trust into any school reinventing a wheel and solving the issues that exist with GCSE - I am sceptical on many levels. From concept through to implementation. It's hard enough to find good teachers to teach material that is well known and defined. And who will be creating all those different and more exciting courses?

As I mentioned last year - SPGS already has courses they develop on their own. And while courses in Art, Drama and Art History - are great. The other courses have been somewhat a disaster in the earlier years of implementation - more specifically school's own Computer Science "gsce" was a disorganised mess and kids struggled through it. Creative Technologies "gcse" - also had a lot of teething problems that generated unnecessary stress.

Most university admissions look at A-levels and personal statements. Most don't care as much about GCSEs. Cambridge certainly has a different approach to Oxford - and they don't seem to be bothered by GSCEs. So - no surprise you have them on your video.

However - I always take any statements by HMs (and politicians) with a grain of salt. After all - SPGS's HM tells parents in younger years that University love SPGS's school directed courses. And, I am sure it most are OK with them. But the hardworking kids in this year cohort who missed on Oxford interviews because Oxford only accepted 8 or 9 of their 13 GSCEs (and penalised them as they expect at least 10 GSCEs from private schools) - will have a different view on the HM's statement.

Thanks for writing this. The other posts on this subject is making me nervous to accept LU! I’m about 98% sure we will accept LU. Have you made your decision yet? Annoying the private messaging is disabled!

Hi @SamPoodle123! Yes we have decided to go for LU. We have the tour with the head tomorrow morning and then plan to decline other offers this weekend. I understand there are different perspectives on the GCSE change, but we feel it is really positive. Also really like the buzz of the school, that it is big, busy and modern, more down to earth than some, like the wide bursary programme, like that it is co-ed and hear great things from people I know with DC at the school. Good luck with final decision making!

@Sashya - you feel very strongly about the GCSEs so we can disagree!
Just a point on the number of GCSEs and Oxbridge. My other DC goes to a private school that only lets the girls take 9 GCSEs as standard. Some will take more but not many. Their Oxbridge results have not been affected in the slightest. They have not been 'penalised' by only taking 9 and I suspect if girls are not getting expected offers at SPGS it's not because they're doing less GCSEs.

Anyway, good luck to your decisions. PM me if you have any specific questions.

@Sashya thank you for your open viewpoint on SPGS own course and marking. This was very open and helpful for others.
@vivalasviva 9 GCSEs for girl schools ok for Oxbridge. I think it depends on course applications. If your DD wanted to apply for Physics, Medicine,Veterinary courses they need the country set standard exams such as GCSE or the French or German version of National exams to get an interview. If it is for French literature it may not be as the cut off point for interviews.

My DS’s school has a higher ranking and is more selective than others. During his GCSE years, the focus wasn't on repetitive exam techniques or a limited curriculum. Instead, the GCSE standards were seen as just the baseline to be taught quickly, and the kids were required to explore far beyond the typical GCSE content.

Schools like Latymer and Bedales feel the GCSE curriculum is too simplistic for their kids. They aim to be able to teach at a higher level, targeting GCSE 10 standards. They claim this shift is to avoid limiting the curriculum and to stop spending so much valuable time on exam strategies. It makes me wonder - why such current practice? Are their teachers generally unable to push students deeper and wider (to GCSE 10, 11, 12 level) with the “too easy” GCSE 9s as the minimum? Or do they feel that their kids need extensive drilling and two years focused on exam prep just to achieve decent, though not top-tier, results? They feel that their kids need more than 2 years to work on A-level, so bypass GCSE to give them more time for the 3-4 subjects?

I bet their A-level performance won't improve. The kids who joined after this announcement are less selective and lots of parents of highly academic kids aiming for top UK universities are looking elsewhere if they can help.

Katharine Birbalsingh shares a similar view on this issue.

https://www.theguardian.com/education/2023/sep/14/private-schools-wanting-to-opt-out-of-gsces-unable-to-produce-the-results#:~:text=“I%20would%20argue%20that%20Latymer,BBC%20Radio%204's%20Today%20programme.

Having said all this, I wish Latymer all the best with its plan. After all, their kids as well as any other deserve the best education and the opportunities for the higher education.

I know how Oxbridge admissions work- I've been through it with my DC. But if a child from LU ( or indeed another child who has only a handful of GCSEs) wanted to apply for medicine to Oxford they will be judged more on the MCAT or whatever it's called, In fact Oxford's admission page specifically mentions what happens if a candidate doesn't have GCSEs. (If they've got a 5 in gcse Matns and English obviously they probably won't get very far). I've spoken about this exact topic to LU on behalf of a relative who have consulted at length with Oxford.

London is chock a block with bright kids- plenty to go round and different schools suit different children and parents.
I don't think LU are changing things because they think they're 'too good for GCSEs' - they're certainly not the only school to think they're not really fit for purpose. I think part of it is trying to
Incorporate other ways of learning and being examined which will be more useful in the real world and at university and work, not just sitting down and writing for 2 hours. My nephew is at a 'top boys school' and certainly spent most of Feb- May doing practice papers and question technique. Very few DCs could waltz into an exam and nail it without doing that.

It'll be interesting to watch what happens in the whole sector over the coming years. Appreciate the LU thing is a bit of a gamble for parents though!

There are so many reasons making LUS stand out such as Co-ed(which I personally think that is better for my children), truly mixed from all backgrounds(ethnicity as well), fantastic facility especially the boat house at the back of the school making many early training mornings or late afternoons seamless( my elder daughter could have a shower in the morning then just rush to the class). 80% of the teachers were truly fantastic, some teachers really went beyond and my elder daughter often speaks fondly about. We were very sad to not choose the school for our 2nd child just because we feel strongly about GCSE indeed. There are all reasons mentioned here but 2 are for us:

1. Teacher talent and peer selection pool: for teacher it might become limited when their CV mentioned that they dont teach GCSE and some family like us will opt out.

1. It seems the school avoid exam pressure which we dont have a problem with for our kids when they are at year 10-11. Peers pressure is important including from other school, removing this pressure isnt what we want.