11+ preparation for DD who turned down offer from Bute House and Latymer Prep

[Happybunnyxxx]

Hello parents,

DD got offers from Bute House and Latymer Prep this year but we decided to turn both down and stay at our current state primary school- we would like to nurture her in a familiar and loving community and focus on character building.

Through the 7+ assessments, we learnt a lot about her ability and personality. We did not prepare her for any of the tests. In fact, we just told her to go and check out the schools as well as play some games, even with the 3 relatively formal paper with Latymer. She came out smiling and enjoyed the challenge- she was not aware that she entered any school entrance assessments.

We understand that we would need to prepare for 11+ assessments especially the tests would cover more than national curriculum for Year 6, besides exam skills. We also know that it is unlikely the current state secondary school could help on extra exam preparation. Since she is only in Year 2, we do not intend for her to start tutoring at all now. Rather, we would like to use the time to research and find a good tutor or a team of good tutors.

We do not have any target school yet as we would like to get to know DD more about her interests and talents first. Currently she is very interested in arts and music. We live about 25mins walk from both Bute House and Latymer Prep/Upper so it is likely to be secondary schools around that part of West London.

We would like to have recommendation of some good tutors who could do face to face tutoring at home but we are not sure how to find them locally as the parents at her school we spoke to use online ones and local FB page search has not been fruitful neither. Would you please help?

If you know of any good online ones too please feel free to recommend.

It would be very much appreciated if you could share your experience in finding the right tutor(s) for your children too as we have never done it before.

Thank you very much for your help. :)

Why would you turn down such good schools at 7+? I suspect you’ve marked your copy book.

This is a confusing post. OP why would you turn down offers from both these schools when you intend to send your daughter to them in a few years time? I understand you want her to stay in a nurturing environment however she got into those schools with ease and no prep, you now want to invest in tutors to make her sit exams for the same schools?!

The exams get much more difficult (7+ Vs 11+) and the prep for them will consume so much of her time and energy. Now imagine a scenario that she started at one of the two schools you mentioned at 7+, she would just continue through the years, with no further hours and hours of prep or tutoring.

What you seem to fail to have realised is that there is no guarantee of success at 11+. At 11+ there are often 10 times as many applicants as places. All candidates are well-prepped so it can come down to a few marks on the papers or whether you clicked with your interviewer. At 11+ all kids are fully aware of what's at stake. Tutoring and past papers for 6 months to 2 years in advance is the norm, as is sitting for 4 to 6 schools. As such, sitting 11+ is a far more stressful, competitive and time-intensive process than 7+.
If you had offers from somewhere you wanted long-term, and which was walking distance from your location, you really should have taken it. Turning down multiple places to assemble a crack team of tutors in year 2 is, frankly, nuts.

For Butes one would need to do 11+ anyway, and would assume pressure from peer parents with high expectations.

Focus on love of reading, cultivating interests out of school. If your dd retains information easily and learns concepts quickly nothing to worry about for 11+. But it can be a little stressful for the parent trying to figure things out when coming from a state school (our school was not helpful at all). When the time comes, get a tutor to make sure she covers the curriculum and understands the 11+ exams. Also, Atom learning is the popular thing now (it might change by your time). Good luck.

we decided to turn both down and stay at our current state primary school- we would like to nurture her in a familiar and loving community and focus on character building.

Strange thing to say. Why would you be considering these schools at 11 if they aren’t ’nurturing’ enough now? Tutoring isn’t exactly a nurturing experience either!
You’ll save some money by staying with state for the next 4 years. It’s ok to say that.

But I’m afraid you’ve chosen a much more stressful route. If money really isn’t an issue, I’d ring up and see if you could get one of those places back. Tutoring is no fun and there is the risk she won’t get a place at 11+

Seems a bit odd to turn both down and then immediately start thinking of tutoring and all the hassle that involves. Why try for these schools if you weren't interested in taking up a place? I do know of one kid who dropped out of LPS because of the long commute and then failed (as the parents hoped) to win a place at 11+ so it isn't a done deal that getting in now means anything in the future. I'm sure your dd will do fine but I don't think it's necessary to start tutoring in yr 2, y5 earliest I would say.

If you turned down the places to save up money for senior school I understand. In this case no need to tutor now, build a foundation in English and maths through extensive reading and continuous maths “maintenance” aka making sure she’s on top of everything she does in the class and is able to work at the year above level. You’ll still find that 11+ is another beast compared to 7+ so the likes of LU are far less guaranteed.

If money is no issue then take the Latymer place and avoid the 11+. You’ll find that some Latymer prep parents still tutor for their kids to be able to keep up with the 11+ intake where the new kids will be more able than the Latymer prep kids.

The only reason you would go for Bute is if your eyes are on St Paul’s girls, in which case yes go to Bute and start tutoring now. The parents will tell you they don’t tutor early but they do.

I am not sure your turning down some schools at 7+ is particularly relevant for what I understand to be the main purpose of your post : Which tutor(s) for London 11plus four years from now?

You are getting posts questioning your original decision (too late now!) and judgement that you could probably do without?

There are hundreds of 11plus tutor recommendation posts here for London and new ones appear regularly. If you Google, 'london 11plus tutor Mumsnet', you will get some very good results.

To be fair, it might not be too late @justanotherdaduser - and I’m sure everyone is very well meaning. It’s just offering another perspective. Not everyone realises the efforts people go to for the 11+ in London.

Thank you very much for sharing your experience and tips. It is reassuring and very much appreciated.

DD loves reading and she is already reading Year 5 books by herself at Year 2. She loves learning so we are doing a lot of activities outside school.

We were lucky to be able to talk in depth with headteachers from all 3 amazing schools and understand what they have on offer for our DD in details. There's no perfect school but we just decided that the current one works best for her development right now. We know the limitation with state school, in terms of 11+ exam prep, like you noted. Hence, we are trying to prepare ourselves for it.

As a child, I love exams and never found them that stressful. This skill is something I hope to pass on to DD. We still have time to research and plan for now. We hope to find an in-person one by the time she is Year 4. We have not come across one in West London, yet. Most people we talked to go for online ones. We thought we could ask here before going down the online route.

Atom learning gets mentioned a lot. We would certainly check it out. Thank you very much.

What @SamPoodle123 said is right. Plenty of DC from state primaries get into selective schools at 11+.

My experience is that a tutor from Y5 or doing your own home prep (which is what we did) plus the usual enrichment stuff for a bright DC that you no doubt do anyway (kids magazines, museums, word puzzles, watching documentaries, learning an instrument etc - not all at once!) was enough to get offers from the sort of schools you’re looking at.

I know a child who received a 7+ Offer from City of London but couldn’t get any offer for 11+ (CLGS, G&L, Putney and Wimbledon High School). At 7+ as you mentioned some kids (naturally bright) do not need to practice for assessment but unfortunately for at 11+ stage - Preparation for the exams has a vital role. And some kids doesn’t like that when they get older, refuse to study or feels so under-pressure etc etc. Some does great preparation but still doesnt get place because of the competition. Now you need to focus on music, instruments, sport etc (they ask what you do in interviews or in application form). Who does the best preparation gets the place. I think you should ring the schools back and ask for a place if you can afford the fees. Trust me its sooooo hard and stressful journey than you think it is.

Thank you for sharing your view. This is very reassuring to know.

We are lucky to be able to talk to parents of kids from her current state primary school whom left to attend top private schools.

The messages we got are quite similar to what you noted. The parents were led by incredibly bright kids and they worked hard to facilitate in many ways. We think we can provide that as a family certainly from now till older. After all, life does not stop at 11+. There are more challenges ahead.

DD's capacity to learn is amazing and we already worked out with current Headteacher how to work together to get her challenged in English and Maths in the classroom. She is well loved and very happy at school, which is a great environment to grow and develop as a child.

The only missing puzzle is getting a great tutor/team of tutors for specific 11+ exam related knowledge/skills, which we don't expect the school can support later. We are hoping to find a in-person one who is willing to visit as DD would really enjoy more personal interactions. She might need it in Year 4/5 or she might not, we don't know yet. But it is good to be organised and research for now.

Perhaps it is not very realistic to find an in-person one these days as so far we only have recommendations for online ones but we still have time to search and ask around. Fingers crossed!

If you refuse to listen to good advice from people who have actually been through the 11+ process in London and are willing to put your kid through it unnecessarily then good luck with that. Loving learning at 7 might not equate to loving the endless papers you have to do for the 11+ and there is absolutely zero guarantee of entry at that stage. My daughter came from a prep school that was geared towards 11+ prep and it was still very hard and insanely competitive (some of these schools have more places per applicant than Oxbridge at that stage).

more applicants per place*

"The parents were led by incredibly bright kids and they worked hard to facilitate in many ways. We think we can provide that as a family certainly from now till older. After all, life does not stop at 11+. There are more challenges ahead."

Yes they worked very hard but also understated in Mumsnet

If she naturally super bright passing both top prep feeders then continuing doing so in the next 3 years. 11+ is tough but with your mindset and her ability and tutoring(including at home such as online or via practice books), it will not a problem.

There are broadly two schools of thought on Mumsnet about the London 11+ exams for selective schools.

One group holds the opinion that no children bar tiny geniuses will get through any of these exams without years of prep (whether tutoring or prep that you have done yourself at home). They hold that to be successful for your chosen schools, you will need to make sure your children do lots of additional work outside school, maybe every day, and that it is foolish to do anything else. Endless papers, lots of hours, drilling to the test etc.

The other group thinks that a clever child will probably be fine and end up in a school that fits their natural ability well as long as they have practised a bit in the year leading up to the exams and done some familiarisation both with the content that may not be covered in a school not aiming for 11+ tests and also the actual process of taking an exam.

Over the last couple of years, the dialogue around this on MN has become increasingly bitter and argumentative. Many people have found over the last year or two that it was easier to message posters with children at schools they are interested in privately for advice in order to avoid a bunfight on the threads.

The process is stressful to some extent at 11+, particularly if doing it from a state school where you will have necessarily less guidance about what your child's level might be. However I don't think it always needs to be a high stakes process for the child, especially if you have state options that you are happy with should it not all work out as you had planned.

If you are within striking distance of Kew, we used a very nice tutor for my DD who is currently at SPGS having spent her primary years at a warm and friendly but perfectly ordinary state primary. I don't think the tutor would come to your house, but she does both online and in person tutoring at her home. We went for a tutor rather than doing prep ourselves because I just did not want to have the argument every week (or every day, if the reported amounts of prep on here are accurate). While my DD loves learning and has thrived at her school, she would not have wanted to do anything at all every day! Happy to share the tutor details with anyone who is interested. We did about six months of prep, mainly aimed at speeding DD's working up and exam technique. This worked well for us and we were only interested in two selective schools but DD got places at both, picked the one she liked more, and has been happy there.

"They hold that to be successful for your chosen schools, you will need to make sure your children do lots of additional work outside school, maybe every day, and that it is foolish to do anything else. Endless papers, lots of hours, drilling to the test etc."

"The other group thinks that a clever child will probably be fine and end up in a school that fits their natural ability well as long as they have practised a bit in the year leading up to the exams and done some familiarisation both with the content that may not be covered in a school not aiming for 11+ tests and also the actual process of taking an exam. "

What is the difference on these two paragraphs?

I would be careful of vague adjectives that are not measurable, such as “lots of hours”, “endless” or "a bit", they might actually mean the same hours/efforts from different posters mouth from mumsnet.

I would be also careful about some experience from years ago, where 11+ at the time In London is walk in the park compared to now. And also wary about the recommendation on tutors via PM.

Some parent might still want some guidelines to follow. Think about the school you are aiming for and how the cohorts who get in that schools prepare for the exams. Their preparation efforts probably follow a bell curve, and you should consider where your children fit in that curve. I would use the large middle range as my benchmark, rather than following some low-probability outliers. This is unless you are very confident in your children’s abilities and have a good knowledge of the other candidates. Taking some public mock exams can also help you assess your children’s progress and where they are to some extend.

Preplex's post illustrates perfectly the rather difficult tone that has crept into the discourse on this subject over the last couple of years on MN.

Perfectly counter Bonjour or one or two very similar user who kept stretching on certain tone that trying to create a fantasy world of London 11+.

Preplex seems to pop up on every 11+ thread. I haven't yet worked out what skin they have in the game.

You seems to only notice certain user but not question other familiar names that frequently pop up with the same message every 11+ related thread. It is certainly not a game only play by them.