Higher or Foundation Maths GCSE

Bongbingboo1 · 2023-12-08T21:17:44+00:00

So background info. Our year 11 DD is a hard worker but suffers with anxiety and falls apart in an exam situation. We are supporting with counselling and tutoring as she is telling us she wants to go to sixth form and then study medicine. The issie is Maths. She didn’t do well in her mocks. Head of maths has moved her into a smaller group where they weren’t sure if the kids should do higher or foundation. She’s had a brilliant teacher who has said she’s a higher student we just need to work on the exam practice and confidence. She also has a tutor who says the same thing. The head of maths based upon her results has decided she can only take the foundation paper. He’s told her she’s guaranteed a 5 as she recently scored 90% under test conditions. I feel the school are guaranteeing themselves a pass. If she wants to study medicine she will struggle with a 5 in maths and I think with support she is capable of being the chance for more. Results aren’t everything and we are happy to support her if it doesn’t work out but I feel we are having to fight to get her to take the higher paper. Her actual maths teachers are very much in support of her taking higher as they know it’s more about her self esteem but the head of maths who seems to have the final say is making his decision on results alone. I’m really not sure if it’s worth the fight as she’s not keen on going against the teacher who has said she is guaranteed a 5. Or should I challenge the decision. I feel she is capable if we can help her overcome her own insecurities but equally I don’t want to add pressure on to her.

Hellocatshome · 08/12/2023 21:24

If she has anxiety and falls apart in exam situations is a future in studying medicine actually realistic?

parkingsadness · 08/12/2023 21:29

She absolutely won't be able to study medicine with a 5 in maths. If she's capable of more she should try for it if she's set on medicine.

Most Unis say "min 6" but due to the competition for places realistically she'll need 7+

Octavia64 · 08/12/2023 21:29

The decision about whether to do foundation or higher in maths is tricky.

The foundation paper is easier but as you say it is capped at a 5.

With the higher paper, you can get a grade 4 and there's sometimes a very small 2 mark grade 3, but if she scores very low due to anxiety or whatever the problem is she might come out without a grade at all.

Basically there is a minimum number of marks you need to get on higher to grade and if a student doesn't get that it is ungraded.

It's a real problem, because for kids with anxiety like your DD it's whether to take the risk of her being too anxious and failing completely or banking a 5.

Daveismyhero · 08/12/2023 21:30

Being realistic, what is her academic ceiling? Is she capable of a top grade in maths if she can overcome the anxiety? I teach chemistry and generally, the students that don't get at least a 7 in gcse maths really struggle with the maths in the chemistry a level. She will need to get at least an A at a level chemistry to get into medicine. If that is above her capabilities it might be more beneficial to take the pressure off her now rather than having the high stress for the next 2.5 years.
If she has the capability for a grade 7-9 if she can overcome the anxiety I'd definitely push for a tier change to higher

Original poster

Bongbingboo1 · 08/12/2023 21:37

Daveismyhero · 08/12/2023 21:30

Being realistic, what is her academic ceiling? Is she capable of a top grade in maths if she can overcome the anxiety? I teach chemistry and generally, the students that don't get at least a 7 in gcse maths really struggle with the maths in the chemistry a level. She will need to get at least an A at a level chemistry to get into medicine. If that is above her capabilities it might be more beneficial to take the pressure off her now rather than having the high stress for the next 2.5 years.
If she has the capability for a grade 7-9 if she can overcome the anxiety I'd definitely push for a tier change to higher

I completely agree with what you are saying. She's predicted 7-9's in all subjects but her mock exam in maths didn't reflect this. She got a 6 in Chemistry mock.

Medicine may be a challenge due to her anxiety but I feel that I shouldn't hold her back and if it doesn't work out we can adjust along the way.

OP posts:

Octavia64 · 08/12/2023 21:39

Things that might be worth trying:

Ask the head of maths if she can do a full higher set of papers and see how she does.

Get her to do a full higher set of papers yourself at home and see how she does. (Markschemes are available).

If she is currently borderline foundation higher it is likely her maths will not be good enough for Chem a level (this is not the case if she has been getting bad results due to anxiety but is actually a lot more capable).

However, if the dream of medicine is keeping her working I wouldn't be squelching it just yet.

Kangaboo · 08/12/2023 21:48

What has she scored in her maths mocks so far? The head of maths would likely listen to her actual teacher as if they think she can do better they will want her to.

CumbrianYorkshireHybrid · 08/12/2023 21:49

The only one I allowed DD to drop to foundation was French. She didn't want to do it at GCSE but had to and felt her time could be used elsewhere. If she really has her heart set on medicine she'll need more than a 5. What A levels is she thinking of? DD is doing maths, chemistry and physics (she got all 8s). Her 6th form wanted at least 7s in each of these subjects, but preferably 8s to be comfortable with the academic workload.

Original poster

Bongbingboo1 · 08/12/2023 21:49

Octavia64 · 08/12/2023 21:39

Things that might be worth trying:

Ask the head of maths if she can do a full higher set of papers and see how she does.

Get her to do a full higher set of papers yourself at home and see how she does. (Markschemes are available).

If she is currently borderline foundation higher it is likely her maths will not be good enough for Chem a level (this is not the case if she has been getting bad results due to anxiety but is actually a lot more capable).

However, if the dream of medicine is keeping her working I wouldn't be squelching it just yet.

Thank you. That is really helpful.

She is really determined to battle through her anxiety and her science teachers have all told us how invested they are in supporting her. We're just hitting on the stumbling block of Maths and the head who has the final decision. I am just not sure if to keep up the fight or just let her do the foundation which she's already proven she can pass and then maybe resit it whilst doing her A levels if she needs a higher grade for uni.

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Daveismyhero · 08/12/2023 21:52

Is the anxiety affecting her other subjects too? We wouldn't accept a student onto A level Chemistry without a grade 7 so that's something to keep in mind too. It really is hard at this age, it's a fine balance between being realistic and aspirational. As a teacher it's difficult sometimes, you don't want to crush their dreams, but you also don't want to set them up for failure.
If she was my student I'd let her have a go at a higher paper to see how she got on before commiting to a tier. You normally don't have to make the final decision until around March time

Original poster

Bongbingboo1 · 08/12/2023 21:52

Kangaboo · 08/12/2023 21:48

What has she scored in her maths mocks so far? The head of maths would likely listen to her actual teacher as if they think she can do better they will want her to.

She scored 90% in the foundation but can't get past a 5 in higher. They have made her jump through so many hoops and her teachers have told me they have no say. The head of maths is basing his decision on statistics alone. I have managed to get her a quieter/smaller space to take her exams but that has only been a recent development

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CumbrianYorkshireHybrid · 08/12/2023 21:55

Something also to check, I read it on here but don't know how true it is...that they want the mark from the first sitting of the GCSE, resits won't count. As I said please check because I'm not sure it's correct.

Original poster

Bongbingboo1 · 08/12/2023 21:58

Daveismyhero · 08/12/2023 21:52

Is the anxiety affecting her other subjects too? We wouldn't accept a student onto A level Chemistry without a grade 7 so that's something to keep in mind too. It really is hard at this age, it's a fine balance between being realistic and aspirational. As a teacher it's difficult sometimes, you don't want to crush their dreams, but you also don't want to set them up for failure.
If she was my student I'd let her have a go at a higher paper to see how she got on before commiting to a tier. You normally don't have to make the final decision until around March time

Thank you. She achieved a 6 in her mock chemistry and is predicted a 7. I am so proud of her attitude and effort that I don't want to dash her hopes and really want to say reach for the stars and we'll change things as we go along.

I would like her to take the higher and if it doesn't work out it's not the end of the world, it may just delay things slightly.

However I'm fully aware I'm being stubborn and challenging as a parent - I'm not sure at what point I should accept their decision.

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Daveismyhero · 08/12/2023 22:09

I think as long as you're clear to the school that you completely accept that there is a risk she could drop off the bottom and come out with a U then there isn't really a reason to refuse her doing the higher

Original poster

Bongbingboo1 · 08/12/2023 22:12

Daveismyhero · 08/12/2023 22:09

I think as long as you're clear to the school that you completely accept that there is a risk she could drop off the bottom and come out with a U then there isn't really a reason to refuse her doing the higher

I have been clear, they just don't seem to accept it. I really think this is about them getting a pass and not about my DD. He has never taught her and doesn't know her so I can't get my head round why he gets to have the final say. I fully accept it's a risk. I just feel like it's a risk worth taking and at the end of the day it might just take a bit longer to reach her goals.

OP posts:

Original poster

Bongbingboo1 · 08/12/2023 22:36

CumbrianYorkshireHybrid · 08/12/2023 21:55

Something also to check, I read it on here but don't know how true it is...that they want the mark from the first sitting of the GCSE, resits won't count. As I said please check because I'm not sure it's correct.

I've read this too. Which is another reason why I want her to have the opportunity to do the higher paper. If she didn't care I wouldn't be fighting but she does.

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MapleSyrupWaffles · 09/12/2023 08:29

How exactly does the anxiety affect her on the exam?
Is she not even attempting most of the questions, or does she spend her time worrying instead of working, or what happens?

If she is able to attempt the questions, but anxiety is still getting the better of her and she's getting them wrong, then it sounds like she isn't that strong in some of the topics yet. You might expect some mistakes, lack of checking, calculation errors etc, from anxiety but big mistakes in the maths - enough not to get past a 5 - sounds like it could be an issue around understanding that needs to be sorted first?

Or if it's panic, not answering questions, etc, would she be eligible for extra time, rest breaks, etc., so that she does have time to show what she knows?

When she does a complete higher mock, in untimed, unpressured conditions, is she getting 7 or 8? If she is, and she seems suitable for medicine otherwise, then that could be worth pushing for her to be allowed to do higher. But if she is still not getting those sorts of grades even without the time pressure, then it might be too much for her. A lot of students struggle with putting the topics together for the exam, remembering it all at once, working out what to do, etc, even when they're OK with the topics individually or when they have their notes; they say they understand when it's explained to them afterwards, but they aren't able to do it themselves - that's quite usual, and can result in getting only 5 or 6 on the higher exam. If she can get 7 or 8 with no notes, exam conditions apart from the time, then it's worth fighting for.

itsmyp4rty · 09/12/2023 08:39

Is she getting access arrangements to help her? As she has evidence of ongoing anxiety (she's having counselling) she may be able to be in a small room for exams and have rest breaks. If these things are going to help and she doesn't already get them then talk to the school SENCO asap.

What does your dd want to do? I would say the decision should lie with her. If she wants to go for the higher then I would email the teacher and the head of maths and say that you've been in discussion with your daughter and she wants to do the higher paper. That she is having tutoring and working hard as well as having counselling for her anxiety and so you fully support her in this and would like the school to put her in for the higher paper.

I would be very surprised if they said no, but if they do then take it to the Head.

Original poster

Bongbingboo1 · 09/12/2023 09:03

itsmyp4rty · 09/12/2023 08:39

Is she getting access arrangements to help her? As she has evidence of ongoing anxiety (she's having counselling) she may be able to be in a small room for exams and have rest breaks. If these things are going to help and she doesn't already get them then talk to the school SENCO asap.

What does your dd want to do? I would say the decision should lie with her. If she wants to go for the higher then I would email the teacher and the head of maths and say that you've been in discussion with your daughter and she wants to do the higher paper. That she is having tutoring and working hard as well as having counselling for her anxiety and so you fully support her in this and would like the school to put her in for the higher paper.

I would be very surprised if they said no, but if they do then take it to the Head.

We have got access arrangements and she now is able to sit her exams in a smaller venue.

We have been clear in what we would like but the head of maths will not budge. I would understand if she wasn't trying but she really is and her attitude is fantastic. However, I am conscious of putting extra pressure on her.

I have a meeting arranged for Monday so all your responses have been very helpful and given me food for thought.

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Devilsmommy · 09/12/2023 09:14

I was like this but thankfully I was able to take the intermediate exam. Do they not have that anymore?

JT69 · 09/12/2023 09:20

Take the higher (pay yourselves if school don’t agree). My DS failed the foundation paper twice because you have to get such high marked to get a level 5 pass and can’t score higher. You stand much better chance on the higher. He passed that on first time of taking .

Testina · 09/12/2023 09:25

“She scored 90% in the foundation but can't get past a 5 in higher.”

I know you’ve said she’s got a teacher and tutor saying that she’s capable of Higher, but what does she actually score if she does a past paper at home without the exam conditions stress?

Because it sounds like the exam anxiety isn’t affecting her during the Foundation paper, or on her other subjects - at least not to the same extent.

What does she actually score on Higher paper? Are her teacher and tutor just meaning that she’s capable of getting a 5 on Higher? (in which case, the advice is usually to do Foundation)

Hellocatshome · 09/12/2023 09:27

Nope which is a real shame. My DS came out with almost perfect score on the foundation but obviously only got a 5. It was too much of a risk to go in for higher as 4 was what he needed for his apprenticeship so it worked out intermediate would have been a much better fit for him but doesn't exist anymore.

Testina · 09/12/2023 09:29

I know it doesn’t help the OP… just a rant… but I see so much angst over this. Why can’t they all sit a Foundation paper which is enough to secure a 5, and then optional Higher paper for 6-9? And if you get 0% on the Higher, it’s irrelevant to the mark banked on the Foundation?

Octavia64 · 09/12/2023 09:34

Intermediate no longer exists.

It's worth thinking about the consequences of her getting a U.

In England, if a student has failed English or maths they have to keep resitting them. This has been in place for a few years now.

Many sixth forms have found that running these resit classes is expensive staffing wise (often only a few kids in the class) and it's hard for the students to pass - schools throw a massive amount of small groups, individual tutoring etc at year 11 and the pass rate for kids resitting is low.

So many sixth forms now say that they will only accept students for a-levels if they have passed maths and English GCSEs - so they no longer have to run the resit courses.

So you should probably check - where she wants to do A-levels - will they take her if she gets a U? The answer may well be no. In which case taking the higher paper might risk her whole sixth form place.