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Secondary education

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Original poster

Higher or Foundation Maths GCSE

50 replies

Bongbingboo1 · 08/12/2023 21:17

So background info. Our year 11 DD is a hard worker but suffers with anxiety and falls apart in an exam situation. We are supporting with counselling and tutoring as she is telling us she wants to go to sixth form and then study medicine.

The issie is Maths. She didn’t do well in her mocks. Head of maths has moved her into a smaller group where they weren’t sure if the kids should do higher or foundation. She’s had a brilliant teacher who has said she’s a higher student we just need to work on the exam practice and confidence. She also has a tutor who says the same thing. The head of maths based upon her results has decided she can only take the foundation paper. He’s told her she’s guaranteed a 5 as she recently scored 90% under test conditions.

I feel the school are guaranteeing themselves a pass. If she wants to study medicine she will struggle with a 5 in maths and I think with support she is capable of being the chance for more. Results aren’t everything and we are happy to support her if it doesn’t work out but I feel we are having to fight to get her to take the higher paper.

Her actual maths teachers are very much in support of her taking higher as they know it’s more about her self esteem but the head of maths who seems to have the final say is making his decision on results alone.

I’m really not sure if it’s worth the fight as she’s not keen on going against the teacher who has said she is guaranteed a 5.

Or should I challenge the decision. I feel she is capable if we can help her overcome her own insecurities but equally I don’t want to add pressure on to her.

OP posts:
mumsneedwine · 09/12/2023 11:03

@Bongbingboo1 tell the head of maths that she wants to study medicine. For which she realistically needs a 7 to keep as many options open as possible (although Bristol accept a 4 !). Tell them you understand the risks of doing higher but are prepared to take them and that is what your DD will be sitting. The school get to advise, not choose. I say this as a teacher (of chemistry and maths) and I have these conversations every year. Also, the latest you can change tiers of entry is March (with no cost) and April (a fee is payable), so plenty of time to make the final decision.
And then get DD to do past papers until they run out. Self mark them, look at the mark schemes and learn where she's going wrong. She might never get to understand the last 4-5 pages of each text, but that's ok, as maths papers get harder as you go through them.

Original poster
Bongbingboo1 · 09/12/2023 11:24

mumsneedwine · 09/12/2023 11:03

@Bongbingboo1 tell the head of maths that she wants to study medicine. For which she realistically needs a 7 to keep as many options open as possible (although Bristol accept a 4 !). Tell them you understand the risks of doing higher but are prepared to take them and that is what your DD will be sitting. The school get to advise, not choose. I say this as a teacher (of chemistry and maths) and I have these conversations every year. Also, the latest you can change tiers of entry is March (with no cost) and April (a fee is payable), so plenty of time to make the final decision.
And then get DD to do past papers until they run out. Self mark them, look at the mark schemes and learn where she's going wrong. She might never get to understand the last 4-5 pages of each text, but that's ok, as maths papers get harder as you go through them.

Thank you, that's really helpful.

OP posts:
boysmuminherts · 09/12/2023 12:30

It's important to note you can get a 5 on higher maths paper by getting less than 50%, whereas with the foundation paper it's very high. This summers GCSE grade boundary for a 5 was 92/240 for higher and 189/240 on foundation. Go for the higher paper!! If she's half decent at maths like it sounds she is, she shouldn't be doing foundation.

Stuckinarut23 · 09/12/2023 12:37

This annoys me that they do this as some children could shine on the day. I sat the foundation paper at school and got a d grade. I paid to redo it as an adult and opted for the higher papar as marks are higher per question. I was so nervous couldn't add 2 and 2 for the first 20 mins, but I soon settled down and managed to answer the harder questions the further alon I went. I managed to get a c still, I don't think I would have on the foundation as I would have had to get alot more questions right.

thestringcheesemassacre · 09/12/2023 12:44

boysmuminherts · 09/12/2023 12:30

It's important to note you can get a 5 on higher maths paper by getting less than 50%, whereas with the foundation paper it's very high. This summers GCSE grade boundary for a 5 was 92/240 for higher and 189/240 on foundation. Go for the higher paper!! If she's half decent at maths like it sounds she is, she shouldn't be doing foundation.

Agree here with this. My daughter struggled with maths throughout GCSEs and got a U in mocks for higher but school insisted she stay in the higher group and she got a low mark but a 5 in the end. She would definitely have got a 4 had she been in foundation sets.

clary · 09/12/2023 12:53

To those saying the mark for a 5 on H is much lower - that's true, but that's because the paper is much harder! A student who is a comfortable 5 should have no trouble getting the required high % on F.

Maths is not my subject, MFL is, and in that, if I had a student who was a decent 5 I would advise F. If they were able to achieve a strong 5/6 on a good day on the H paper, then I would interrogate it to see whether it was worth sitting the H paper (ie did they need/want a 6+). The F MFL paper is a lot easier, it just is. Translate four simple sentences instead of a whole paragraph; write a bullet-point-supported essay of 40 words instead of an open one of 150 words; write sentences about a picture which can all start with "there is".

In your DD's case it's clear that she might well require a 6/7 in maths. In which case the H paper is worth looking at. But she should be aware that even at a 6, much of the paper will be inaccessible.

I agree with those saying, get her to sit a H paper in exam condidions (ie not looking things up) but at home so an easier environment. Check and mark it - what does she score? If it is a 6 then go back to school and ask again.

sashh · 09/12/2023 13:13

Email the head of maths and state that they are discriminating against her due to a medical condition.

Original poster
Bongbingboo1 · 09/12/2023 14:05

Thank you all and I am so pleased I posted.

I'm going to weigh up the options and will get DD to sit the higher paper at home and see how she does.

I'll update once I've spoken to school on Monday.

OP posts:
Greekgreens · 09/12/2023 14:16

What’s she planning to take at A level? At my DDs state comp they will only accept 9-6 for any of the sciences, so no one taking the foundation Maths can take a science A level there.

SnowsFalling · 09/12/2023 14:25

As above, are there any pre-requisites for maths grades for the A levels she wants to sit?
What A levels does she want to do? I'm assuming Bio, Chem and something that isn't physics or maths?

LIZS · 09/12/2023 14:36

If she is capable of getting 6+ she needs to do higher.

noblegiraffe · 09/12/2023 14:39

She scored 90% in the foundation but can't get past a 5 in higher.

What did she actually get on the higher mocks?

It would be bizarre for a school to say that a child who got a 5 on the higher paper at this point that they should be entered for Foundation, as getting the 5 is a clear indication that they have a chance of a 6.

Did she actually get the 5, or did she get a score that indicates a danger of falling off the bottom and getting a U?

Kangaboo · 14/12/2023 09:52

How did you get on speaking to schoo? @Bongbingboo1

Original poster
Bongbingboo1 · 14/12/2023 11:27

We have a face to face meeting planned for Tuesday morning.

OP posts:
Pythag · 14/12/2023 22:02

It would be helpful to understand the actual score she got in her last higher paper. I am surprised you have not told us this? If she is in danger of failing the higher paper, the Head of Maths is correct to make her do the lower paper. Schools should choose this, not parents. And no, this is not discrimination.

Of course, if she was not in danger of failing the higher paper, she should do it.

Sproutier · 15/12/2023 17:51

Mock papers sound like a good way forward.

I wonder if these "rules" are written for children who are struggling with the content, rather than having a big anxiety barrier but being really quite able aside from that.

I can easily imagine my academic, autistic child being able to access the higher paper more than the foundation one. The extra pressure of "having" to stay and attempt the whole paper to get a 5 could well outweigh the benefit of the easier questions. If staying in the room is more of a blocker than the difficulty of the questions, then her exam choices need to reflect this. That said there will also be a lot of anxious kids whose anxiety is better relieved by the easier paper.

Maybe try to keep the focus on meeting her needs. This would give more weight to the opinions of adults who know her well - her maths teacher and tutor rather than the head of dept.

lightthetable · 15/12/2023 18:03

@Bongbingboo1 as there are actual GCSE maths teachers posting on this thread your DD's score on the higher paper would be helpful to know because then you can get advice on here before your meeting on Tuesday.

Original poster
Bongbingboo1 · 18/12/2023 21:13

She got 25% in the higher so not great. She’s never got over 30% on the higher.

We really want to understand the decision and make sure it is based on our child as an individual. I have had conflicting messages from her actual teachers and the head of maths (who has never met her and seems to have the final decision), but I’m 100% not going to push for higher if we agree it’s not right for her.

OP posts:
Kangaboo · 18/12/2023 21:45

If you look at the grade boundaries she's going to have to really perform a lot better to get a 6
https://www.oxfordrevise.com/gcse-maths-grade-boundaries/
With the results she has I can see why the teacher may think the safe 5 at foundation may suit her better.

@Bongbingboo1 does she score higher on a higher paper out of exam conditions?

Just a thought but there's lots of allied health professions that won't require quite as high grades across the board. It may be time to start taking some of the pressure of both of you?

GCSE Maths grade boundaries - Oxford Revise

Oxford Revise has gathered all the grade boundaries for the GCSE Maths AQA and Edexcel exam boards, to show what was needed to achieve specific grades

https://www.oxfordrevise.com/gcse-maths-grade-boundaries

Kangaboo · 18/12/2023 21:50

It may be the teachers find her a good student (i.e. attitude and effort) but that might not mean a strong mathematician?

Original poster
Bongbingboo1 · 18/12/2023 22:55

I completely agree. We’re going in to understand rather than challenge. We haven’t been able to have parents evening due to maths teacher cancelling last minute so I think we’re entitled to discuss it in person. I honestly really appreciate the input from all of you so thank you.

OP posts:
WhatsitWiggle · 18/12/2023 23:25

There's additional curriculum in Maths between foundation and higher - has your daughter studied the extra? As you say she has moved classes.

I'd want to see where she's losing marks in the higher, is it interpretation of the wordy questions for example?

Original poster
Bongbingboo1 · 18/12/2023 23:54

She’s been in an intermediate set since October for the children who they were unsure about her tutor has continued working on higher content.

It’s the wordy questions where she struggles.

OP posts:
TeenDivided · 19/12/2023 07:10

Bongbingboo1 · 18/12/2023 23:54

She’s been in an intermediate set since October for the children who they were unsure about her tutor has continued working on higher content.

It’s the wordy questions where she struggles.

imo (not an expert) the grade 4/5 questions can be a lot wordier than the grade 6 ones. Which is where dropping down may not help. (DD has worked towards both). I'd definitely want a good discussion with the teacher, but ultimately be guided by them I think.

Original poster
Bongbingboo1 · 19/12/2023 18:02

It has been agreed that DD will go back into higher paper set aimed towards those pupils who are working towards a 6-7.We’ll make the final decision as to if she needs to switch down to the foundation paper March/April time, but at the moment she’ll continue to revise higher material. The way the school works is they teach all the material in years 9 and 10 and then revise during year 11. We’re also going to double her tutor time each week so she can focus on exam questions and her maths revision at home is in a focused environment with her tutor. I want to see how she gets on in January with the class move and her mocks and go from there.

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