Shocking League Table Of Bucks and Herts Secondaries!

[BucksorHerts]

I stumbled upon this article about rankings and I'm perplexed at the 2024 league table.
https://britannia-study.com.my/state-schools/best-state-secondary-schools-in-the-uk

I was surprised to see St George's School Harpenden ranked at 37
Dr Challoner's High at 28
Dr Challoner's Grammar (not found in the 2024 league table. How can it now make the of 184 schools? Is the site unreliable then?)
Chesham Grammar at 35
DAO ranked at 53 (Why so low? It's so highly regarded)
Sir Henry Floyd st 54
Parmiters at 98 (Surely this is an error??)

Is there a more reliable site for league tables to compare rankings?
I'm interested in Bucks and Herts.

What's MFL? If ones lives in Amersham DCGS and DCHS are the closest.

The original linked table and article is hopeless. The methodology is not a methodology. It’s an embarrassment of an explanation.

OP, as many others have said, just look at the DfE school performance tables but focus closely on progress scores. Absolute attainment tells you nada if schools employ different levels of academic selection.

@Radiodread
Well it tells you where there’s a greater concentration of brighter dc. Or not. Often Bucks grammars have great progress scores too which surprises many.

Three sciences are compulsory. Physics, chemistry and biology. No combined sciences option.

I think you have misunderstood my post.

Parents choose this school - No. BCC allocates. Children have the option to list catchment schools in order of preference. For us, Dr Challoners, Chesham Grammar School or Amersham Scl.

But maybe dc don’t want to be doctors! You cannot force this career on the boys. - Exactly right. And why do few have gone on to study medicine from class of 23.

Years ago DCGS was an engineering powerhouse. - “Powerhouse” 😂. It’s a school!

Also many dc see themselves working in London. - Because it’s on the Tube. It’s why many of the parents move here. It’s why house prices are so high. Many also look to work overseas.

It’s perfectly reasonable to say grammar school dc should be able to do a MFL. - It is, able being the operative word. I work for a global business. All business is done in English. Even in other countries where it is the common language. I have A level French. I’ve never used it professionally. Socially at work, yes, because I could.

Two sciences or triple should be offered. Offered, yes. Three are mandated.

If parents don’t like the school, there are alternatives! - There are, if in catchment and allocated a place or can afford fees. Check the costs for Merchant Taylors and Berkhamstead and then come back to me. We can just stamp our lickwle feeties until we get.

@TizerorFizz, as a parent, teacher or governor, what is your very recent experience of DCGS?

From my very recent experience as a parent, I can tell you that a high percentage of boys choose two subjects to “dump” and do the best minimum. A level and uni entry consider 8. The boys take 10. This impacts the classroom experience for others. Typically, a MFL and a science are “dropped.”

The grades speak for themselves. To get a U in Spanish or German after at least 4 years studying takes some effort. I think it must have become bravado to get a U. This or the teaching is shocking. That’s a lot slipping through the gaps.

Parents choose this school- No. BCC allocates. Children have the option to list catchment schools in order of preference. For us, Dr Challoners, Chesham Grammar School or Amersham Scl.

The point is, even if your DCs pass the 11+, you can choose not to send them to grammar school if it doesn't offer the subjects you want your DCs to study. Amersham School may offer a more varied curriculum.

You obviously had a disappointing experience at DCGS and I'm sorry about that, but objectively speaking it is a highly regarded school which gains decent results for the majority of pupils at GCSE and A level.

@Replyingnow2
Ok. Parents express a preference. If you expressed a preference for DCG, that was up to you. You could have omitted it. Most parents are happy with the three options you list and many appeal to get into these schools. You know as well as I do, if you wanted the Aylesbury Grammars you should have mined there! Ditto High Wycombe.

Schools are not measured by who wants medicine! Why should they be? It’s one career out of many,

You can go to any school with places. You don’t have to pay. You won’t of course and I know why! Not good enough for you.

My DD has a degree in MFL. Doesn’t use it as a barrister. MFL shows breadth of learning and they are not vocational. Is History vocational? Or RE? These subjects are learnt for different reasons. General education is broad and not necessarily vocational at a grammar school.

You don’t seem to understand the word “powerhouse” as applied to education. Why don’t you think it applies? When DH was there it certainly was!

Most grammars expect 9 subjects. If 3 sciences is enforced, 8 subjects gives little choice. 9 or 10 is normal for bright DC. If DC decide to fail, that’s their choice. Or they are the over tutored and cannot cope.

moved there - not mined.

Modern Foreign Language.
How old are you children? If they are young, things could be very different by the time they go to senior school.

Progress 8 is 1.19 for 2023. Well above average and better than DCHS. Surely that’s impressive and tells you not all the dc there are brilliant when they arrive? Yes, there’s the odd blip in MFL and it looks odd. However Attainment 8 measures very similar to the girls but the boys have made more progress. I think reports of the school’s decline are premature. The Amersham School progress 8 is 0.45 for comparison,

@thing47 @TizerorFizz umm, I think many DCGS parents have similar thoughts to @Replyingnow2. Do you have DCs currently or recently at the school?

With my daughter, I attended the year 12 parent consultations last night. She moved to the boys’ school from the girls after GCSEs. External Sixth form entrants have to have v strong GCSE scores. Like a couple of her friends, they are starting to think they made a mistake moving. The physics and chemistry teaching, for example, is far from inspiring.

They moved because it was sold as being a better learning experience to that of the girl’s’ school. Instead, one teacher is new and clearly unsure what she’s doing and the other is jaded and seems to not care what they’re doing.

The headmaster is not a patch on the headmaster at the girls school either. One is smug the other is a people leader.

There are more managed transfers than you would believe. I assume this keeps the attainment scores up. I’m also amazed by the numbers of children with tutors for multiple subjects. I’m starting to see for myself why tutors for A level sciences are a necessity. The school alone can’t help the students achieve high grade As. These are essential to study medicine. This might account for why so few went on to study medicine this year.

@TizerorFizz you are hilarious 😆 This comment made my day!

You don’t seem to understand the word “powerhouse” as applied to education. Why don’t you think it applies? When DH was there it certainly was!

How old is your husband, 19? 😂 I’m assuming he’s in his 50s. There is every chance I know him. I grew up in Amersham. Back to the laugh of the day, the school must be eight headmasters on! Trust me, it’s not the school it was, but you know best @TizerorFizz. you keep in stamping those feet. Btw, your DD is the best.

So how is the progress 8 so high? This might be down to stupid parents being desperate and wanting tutors I guess but unlikely. Unfortunately you live in a ridiculously competitive area. The north of Bucks is a bit more laid back. Too many force fed dc in the south and desperate parents. I’ve seen them where I live. It’s pathetic. We’ve had dc in our village start bed wetting due to pressure to get 11 plus. Parents are mad.

The Bucks grammars have always taken a fairly wide range of abilities within the high achievers. Some aren’t far away from middle achievers and over achieve at the 11 plus. So of course they won’t all get 8/9 grades or As and above. It’s inevitable.

Why move from the girls grammar to the boys? Never really understand why. How can DCGS be better than DCHS? I would question a move if it had been my DD. Of course a school sells itself but you don’t have to fall for it. Boys are available outside of school.

@Replyingnow2 My DD? What’s she got to do with anything? Glad she’s the best though! At what?

Until your children attend a school you have no lived experience. We selected DCGS because on paper it is an excellent school and on paper, grammar schools offer greater opportunities. This is a school that pumped out Dominic Raab. I assumed he was, literally, a joker. Anyway, 30 years ok, you husband thrived in the powerhouse and no doubt has thrived in the city or similar. The world has moved on!

Also what’s wrong with a school producing lots of engineers? I’m clearly talking about the past but many pupils were great at subjects allied to engineering and had a brilliant engineering education there. It was known for it. Yes, we’re a bit long in the tooth. Now it’s measured by medics produced which seems odd.

In the City??? Absolutely not. Has run a very successful engineering consultancy. We are still local. Just checked - 4 heads. No huge turnover of heads.

And what has my DD got to do with anything??How is she the best? Do you know her?

I do accept schools change. Of course I do. What I’m trying to say (obviously poorly) is that different people want different things from a school. In DHs day, they introduced engineering A level. It suited lots of boys. They did an architecture course. They did sessions at Brunel uni. They were able to cater for more practical dc. I accept parents don’t care about this type of education any more but schools really can inspire dc if they have the right staff. In some subjects this is clearly a challenge now. However saying this isn’t a good school is way off the mark on any reasonable measure. Medics isn’t one of those. That’s a hugely personal choice and look at the bad press for that job! I would t suggest it for most dc.

Do you have DCs currently or recently at the school?

That's a fair question @Hardyards . I guess 'yes' in general terms but not in school terms iyswim. So for example most of DS's time there was under the previous head teacher. Although some of his friends still have brothers there.

I think the reason some girls switched from DCHS to DCGS in sixth form was that the boys school was considered better at sciences for A level, so ironically if you were aiming to do medicine or other STEM subjects the boys school was thought a better bet. That was certainly the case when DD2 (who's a scientist) was thinking of going to the girls school for sixth form and a couple of friends already at the school warned her off. Sounds like that might have changed from what you're saying, and I bow to your current experiences over my slightly out-of-date ones.

Its results still stand up pretty well overall, though.

@thing47 Yes they do. Plus the excessive tutoring for 11 plus shows that parents still want this school. Others are available of course.

However saying this isn’t a good school is way off the mark on any reasonable measure. Medics isn’t one of those. That’s a hugely personal choice and look at the bad press for that job! I would t suggest it for most dc.

Schools are not measured by who wants medicine! Why should they be? It’s one career out of many

Now it’s measured by medics produced which seems odd.

@TizerorFizz it is and always has been the way that many schools cite how many students they got into Oxbridge and Medicine each year as a measure of their academic success. The reason for this is not that they think these routes are the only prestigious routes but that they present clearly demonstrable ones. Oxbridge is Oxbridge and always has cachet for any course. Likewise, any medical degree offer at any institution is a huge achievement. It's not like subjects like engineering, law, computer science, economics etc. where of course you have your prestigious Oxbridge, LSE and Imperial degrees but you also have less prestigious courses being offered at other institutions which are lower tariff. If you don't meet the high selection standards for medicine degree, there is no fallback apart from another course entirely.

And you may think Medicine is an unattractive option but even looking at it from your strict financial return perspective, it is still the degree with the highest financial return on investment.

I thought it was possible to actual compare schools on the same page. I don't seem to be able to find how to select two schools simultaneously. Will like to compare Dr Challoner's and
Student destinations - Progression into higher education or training (2020 leavers) - Lady Margaret School - Compare school and college performance data in England - GOV.UK (compare-school-performance.service.gov.uk) for example.

Wait, they let girls into the boys school now?!
we had different lunch breaks to discourage mingling!

No it hasn’t always been the case re medicine! No one sector think it was that special! Maybe some parents do but it didn’t used to be singled out and many grammars still don’t!