Chances of getting into academically selective independent school from state primary

[Schoolsdilemma123]

Hello,
Longtime MN lurker here - first time posting. I'm in Hertfordshire and when DS is older I'd love him to go to one of the academically selective independent schools within reach such as St Albans boys, QE, or habs. We are applying to primary school now and I would like him to go to our (Good- rated) local state school as its right on our doorstep so mornings would be easy and he would have local friends. I assumed that we wouldn't have a problem getting him in to one of academically selective secondary schools later on if we pay for tutoring and nurture his extra- curricular interests etc. Obviously I think he's a little genius but every parent thinks that about their kid so may not be accurate!
However, I recently spoke to a parent who is sending her children to private prep school for primary; she claimed that 100% of them pass the entrance exams to the secondary schools of their choice and it's much more difficult for state school kids to get in, even with tutoring. Is this true? I've been looking at various schools websites to try to find out roughly what % of their intake comes from prep schools vs state but the data doesn't seem to be available.
We can afford private primary but I'd prefer to have a few years to build up our savings before we start paying school fees as we've just spent a lot on doing up the house. Plus the issue of having to drive him every morning. I'm aware some parents choose 'state until 8' but my son is highly strung and I think uprooting him halfway through his primary school career would really unsettle him so I'd like to make the right choice from the outset. Thanks so much if you've read through this essay and have any advice!

I don't have kids in private education but this:

"However, I recently spoke to a parent who is sending her children to private prep school for primary; she claimed that 100% of them pass the entrance exams to the secondary schools of their choice and it's much more difficult for state school kids to get in, even with tutoring. Is this true?"

She would say that, wouldn't she? She's validating her choices!

One step at a time - get your DS into primary, then look at options for secondary. I don't buy the idea that private secondary pupils only come from private primary school.

The other parent is going to say that because she wants to look smart for paying for prep. If her child is at an academically selective prep then her child's chances will be higher because the child is starting at a higher level.

State school kids get into academically selective independents with the right tutoring. Academically selective preps get kids into top schools because they can manage out kids who aren't going to get offers. The 100% statistic is silly too. At the top preps virtually everybody will get an offer somewhere but it's so competitive that they don't just walk into any school of their choice. Eg you might have a pupil who gets St Paul's but not Westminster which is fine because they are top schools and you only need one school place.

For both QE and academically selective private school start tutoring (either yourself; Atom Learning or other tutor) from Year 3. Seriously. It is super competitive.

QE had 3,000 boys sit the exam this year for 150 places.

We're currently looking at academically private for 2024 entry where it is 35 places and 500 applicants. We started end Year 5 which we now realise was too late.

Eldest started in state, second child started in private after we moved eldest beginning of year2. The diff in their education, approach to work and attitude to school, self esteem was vast up to
about yr5 when eldest ‘caught up’. If you can afford it, start as you mean to go on.

If you can afford it, pay for the prep school. There will be so many applying for the secondary places your child will have a better chance by going to the prep.
It shouldn't be this way I know. But if I am honest, if I could afford it I would send my children to private schools in a heartbeat.

However, I recently spoke to a parent who is sending her children to private prep school for primary; she claimed that 100% of them pass the entrance exams to the secondary schools of their choice

DD went to a private junior school (up north, so nothing like the arms race down south!) where they would say that all kids would get into the secondary school of their parents choice. This seemed to be true, but the school was very good at steering parents towards the appropriate secondaries for their child. So that claim may not be quite what she'd like you to think!

I agree with PPs about this woman validating her choices.

I find this attitude that a kid who goes to state school is condemned to a second rate education for life is nonsense.

Plenty of state school kids do get in to private. In fact, private exams are easier than the 11+.

but realistically, you will need to prep kids. It also helps if your child is naturally studious - they can be prepped to pass.

it all depends on how bright your kid is- really bright ones will be fine.

I don’t know your area but, I’d say that shelling out for the prep is probably the best way to secure a place in the senior school.

Of course not every private school child passes the entrance exam to the secondary of their choice, or Eton would have an intake of about 30000.

Prep school children will have an advantage as they will be spending much of year 5 prepping for entrance exams. But if your child is bright and is willing to be tutored, he’ll have as good a chance as anyone else.

If he is kind of middling, or doesn’t want to be tutored, maybe not - whereas a middling child at a private school would probably get in. Which is what parents are paying for.

The main selection criteria in the independent sector remains ability to pay. Lot of state school children pass.

At our local private school, they can accept 140 children in to Year 7.

If you join the prep school by year 5, then you only need to take the Non Verbal and Verbal tests instead of Maths, English and Science plus NV/V. 95% of the children from the 3 prep schools go to the senior school. The current Year 6 has 96 children in one school, 23 in another and 16 in the other.

If the 95% stat is accurate, 128 children will be going to the seniors from the preps and this would only allow 12 additional children in from outside state schools.

There is a HUGE jump between the numbers in Year 4 (60ish) to year 5 due to this reason.

There will be over 200 children applying for those 12 places so many parents put their children in year Year 5 for this very reason and the school get an additional £30k per child out of your for those two years.

My DC is in Y7 at an academically selective sought-after independent school in SW London (and got 5 other offers). He went to a nurturing non-pushy state primary school a 3 min walk from our house. He had tutoring from start of Y5 and also did Atom from May of Y5.

I would say go for the local school - an easy journey to school and local friends / being part of local community means so much. It is absolutely feasible to get into private secondaries with some work - about 50% of my son's independent school come from state primaries. Also to note that it is not the case that the state kids are behind once they join - he is coming close to top of the class in tests so far.

CAT scores will help you to know whether he's likely to be able to get into St Albans etc in due course. My kids sat them yearly from year 3 but it may be possible to sit them earlier. St Albans wants 120-129 plus (same as Eton) and Habs want 130-139 plus. This is based on info from my sons' school that we were given last year (so could change)

We went to the open days for some prep schools recently, including Habs for boys. We are considering applying to Habs from reception as we suspect it’s less competitive to get in at that age than at 11.

But some of the other prep schools we went to really emphasised that they have a good entrance rate for other private secondary schools, and that they start preparing them for the entrance exams from year 4. I therefore suspect that is a big difference between state or private primary - state won’t have the same focus on the entrance exams.

Hi @Schoolsdilemma123 we live in Herts, my son goes to a state primary and will be applying for St Albans School next year for 11+ entry in 2025. Unless he has a bad day I am reasonably confident he’ll get in. He has an hour a week of tutoring and we’ll start Atom in addition sometime next year.

I believe at 11+ SAS about half the places go to children from (mainly local) state schools. I can’t remember if this is on their website or I asked on open day but either way what this other mum is telling you is rubbish, at least in relation to SAS.
The other schools you mention should be willing to give you the stats too.

QE is of course a super selective state school rather than an indy.

Prep schools aren’t necessarily filled to the rafters with super bright kids (many are not even academically selective ). The schools may claim that 100% of their kids get in their chosen secondary but this will be because they give a strong steer away from highly academic children entering the exams for the super selective secondary schools.

In addition, many prep schools go up to age 13 so gear their pupils up for y9 entry, rather than Y7. So your son wouldn’t necessarily be competing with them for places

I have the same experience as Dallas - good state primary to London selective independen (both DC). I don’t think the academic side is so much the issue, as that’s relatively easy to deal with via some tutoring or home prep in Y5.

The difference for us between prep and primary was that we had to do much more of the enrichment stuff, and be available for many more hours, than our friends who had DC in prep. It mean I continued to work part-time, and we used grandparents and other flexible childcare.

It worked for us, because we had that support, and were able to make sure that the DC got swimming lessons, music lessons, sport, drama etc after school and at the weekends. It involved a lot of taking them places and waiting around, and managing clashes and logistics. I preferred having the choice of activities, and that they got to know different groups of children. I also (mostly!) liked spending that time with them, walking to and fro and chatting. But I can see the attraction of a good prep that provides all these things (albeit probably less tailored to your DC’s specific interests) on site, especially for two working parents. Just don’t assume a prep will mean no need to tutor - from the people I know, that doesn’t seem to be the case.

Both my daughters went to the local state primary and both got multiple offers from selective private schools at 11. We’re in West London where the whole private school thing is mad.
the idea that somehow because you’re at a state school (be it at primary or secondary) you are not academically able enough to pass exams whether they be at 11 plus or A levels is crazy.

Same with my DCs. Had some tutoring but for exam technique. They'd covered everything they needed in terms of curriculum at their state primary. Got lots of offers as did all their friends also applying to independent schools.
And everyone we knew at Preps also tutored anyway.
Both mine at 'sought after' SW/W London highly selective schools - loads of kids there from state primaries and absolutely no difference in their abilities.

Also a MN lurker but thought I could offer some first hand experience. My DS is at St Albans Boys and went there from a local state primary. I would say that around 50% of the intake at 11 is from state schools - it's certainly not a barrier and the school positively encourages it. My impression is that local prep schools encourage entry at 13, presumably to keep them paying the fees there instead of moving on. Most of the intake at 13 is prep. In terms of 100% of prep school children getting the school of their choice - that's probably true, but the school will have advised the parents beforehand on what is the right choice for their child (as it should) - and so some parents will pursue less academic schools.
I wouldn't take too much notice of the numbers applying versus numbers getting in at any of the schools you mention as the same children are chasing the available places - and many will get multiple offers and can only choose one!
Re. going local - my DS definitely benefited from local friendships and I'm glad we made that decision. There are also quite a number of local boys attending St Alban's boys too. Most of the children at his primary school went to the local state secondary schools as St Alban's has some outstanding ones. When we made our decision for primary admission, we weren't thinking about secondary and your choice will likely depend on the standard of the state secondary options you have and the nature of your child. Our DS is happy at St Alban's and it feels like it was the right choice for him.
Re. tutoring, we didn't, but most do. It very much depends on what the child needs and what sort of assessment the school does. St Alban's entrance exam is changing (check the website) and it might change again before your DS takes it. The school discourages tutoring, but the majority of state as well as prep school children have been tutored and I think it's a band wagon thing. Parents think they need to because others are - but there are definitely boys who would have got in without it (and there are probably some who are in academic schools who shouldn't be there because of it!) But a lot of prep is needed - e.g. practice questions and exam technique. State primary schools don't offer any coaching to pass 11+ exams, but the year 6 SATs curriculum does cover most of the content required. Good luck in your decision!

I know tons of kids who have gone from state primary schools to selective independent secondary schools. I think some parents of kids at private primary schools are kidding themselves about how "advanced" their children actually are!

A few years of state schooling might help swing a place at university later on?

It wouldn't.

I very much doubt that primary school choice is likely to 'swing a place'. (Nor secondary, really, the changes in the last few years are aimed at correcting bias towards privately educated kids).

In general there are a lot of kids in senior private schools are from state primary schools,
range from 10% to 40% in a typical selective private schools in London.

But that doesn't equal to the probability of OP particular DC, there are more factors in play. Since OP just started considering primary school entry I would say it is way too early to know the chance...

Thank you SO much everyone for these incredibly helpful, detailed answers. I'm not from the UK and didn't know how much I didn't know about the education system here. All your replies have been so informative. I need to show this thread to DH so we can discuss it further now we have better info. Thanks again everyone

They don’t look at your primary school.