Chances of getting into academically selective independent school from state primary

[Schoolsdilemma123]

Hello,
Longtime MN lurker here - first time posting. I'm in Hertfordshire and when DS is older I'd love him to go to one of the academically selective independent schools within reach such as St Albans boys, QE, or habs. We are applying to primary school now and I would like him to go to our (Good- rated) local state school as its right on our doorstep so mornings would be easy and he would have local friends. I assumed that we wouldn't have a problem getting him in to one of academically selective secondary schools later on if we pay for tutoring and nurture his extra- curricular interests etc. Obviously I think he's a little genius but every parent thinks that about their kid so may not be accurate!
However, I recently spoke to a parent who is sending her children to private prep school for primary; she claimed that 100% of them pass the entrance exams to the secondary schools of their choice and it's much more difficult for state school kids to get in, even with tutoring. Is this true? I've been looking at various schools websites to try to find out roughly what % of their intake comes from prep schools vs state but the data doesn't seem to be available.
We can afford private primary but I'd prefer to have a few years to build up our savings before we start paying school fees as we've just spent a lot on doing up the house. Plus the issue of having to drive him every morning. I'm aware some parents choose 'state until 8' but my son is highly strung and I think uprooting him halfway through his primary school career would really unsettle him so I'd like to make the right choice from the outset. Thanks so much if you've read through this essay and have any advice!

Lots of children do this. One of mine and two of my GC.

My child has just started at a private secondary. All the children at the private feeder prep got places, regardless of ability. Only the top ability children outside of the prep got places. There is a wait list of 50. Also, none of the children from outside the private prep made it into the top stream.

100% of them pass the entrance exams to the secondary schools of their choice

This means they all get into a school. 'Their choice' is a phrase private peeps use. It suggests they all get into top senior schools but it actually means they all get into a school the parents choose at the end of the day. And the school they 'choose' is the school they get accepted into.

My DS also went to St Albans from our local state primary and I would say that any relatively bright child would get in (DS even had a scholarship and he's not exceptional). HABS is rather more selective; DS was offered a place but we rejected it on logistical grounds. We did have a tutor from year 5 as we were also trying, unsuccessfully, for DAO but lots didn't.

For a moment I would not even consider sending my son to a school that would base their decision of admission on what primary school the child attended. The same for universities.

Hi @Schoolsdilemma123 ! It's perfectly possible to get into a private secondary school from a state primary. My daughter was at a local state primary, a school in special measures. She was offered a place at a leading private school and some other private schools. Our tutor made a big difference.

And her abilities and dedication...I bet

It hugely depends on your child, their current school and the schools you are applying to.

If you are looking at St Albans - academically selective but has a wider range of abilities, in all likelihood you will be fine with a decent state primary, engaged parents and tutoring.

If you are looking at QE Boys/Habs - academically super selective, hundreds of applicants per place (especially for the former because it is state), you need an exceptional child and a lot of intensive work. You would be better off at a prep school where the technique is taught from early on.

I applied for the super selective schools 30+ years ago from a state primary and was rejected by all despite tutoring from Y4/5. My DC are in an academic prep and I can see how I wouldn't have stood a chance when competing with children who are taught like they are - the entire Y4-6 curriculum is tailored towards the entrance exams and various other aspects are subtly taught from pre-prep. Does not vaguely compare to the state school curriculum with a couple of hours tutoring from Y4. Also to keep in mind, many of these prep school kids do tutoring on top of all that school work. Should also note the heads of all the schools are in constant communication so the prep school heads know exactly what the seniors are looking for in the entrance tests.

I would ignore your friend though - prep schools will tell you if your child is not QE material - so it would not be counted as your 'school of choice' if you failed to get a place. With the level of competition for the likes of QE, the most selective of preps would still never guarantee a place so it didn't count in those statistics

Going to a state primary school won't help, but I know a few parents that moved their kids from private senior schools after GCSE to do A-levels at a good state sixth form, to benefit from the pressure on the top Unis to take more kids from the state sector.

It is absolutely possible to get into a top selective independent senior school from a state primary, but only if you understand the process.

Common Entrance (the test that was historically used by independent schools for selection) is now considered a bit out of touch with reality. A lot of independent schools still use common entrance but see it as less important than before, while many have stopped using it entirely for admissions and only use it for setting. And this includes some academically selective schools. I am not suggesting that the academically selective independent schools you are looking at will not require common entrance, but I can almost guarantee that it will not be the only thing they look at.

Much more important to many schools now is the online ISEB common pre-tests, which pupils take in Year 6 or Year 7 depending on the school they are applying to. These are supposedly impossible to prepare for, but I know that DS's prep has specific time allocated in the timetable to help pupils get ready for pre-tests, and I doubt they would do that if they did not see a benefit. I would suggest that as a minimum having sat practice tests must help to get a very stressed 10 or 11 year old understand what they are doing and what is expected of them when in a timed test. The questions tend to be multiple choice verbal and non-verbal reasoning rather than writing lengthy answers in a traditional exam, but I am sure there must be common styles of question that get easier to understand with practice.

Independent schools often place a lot of importance on the interview, which is something anybody can do well at if they are prepared. Again, my DS's prep school has specific sessions on interview technique and all children have practice interviews with the prep school headmaster. Obviously they will still be nervous when they enter a very grand office to speak with a very nice but important looking person, but having experienced this and knowing how to answer key questions must help. Any good independent school will make the interview as stress-free as possible I am sure, but still......

The final key stage of obtaining a place at senior school is the reference from the prep headmaster. While any good headmaster can write an excellent reference, I wonder if an overworked and underpaid head in a state primary will take the same amount of time and care on this reference that she or he doesn't have to write for anyone else, or have the same experience in terms of what does and doesn't work, as the head of an independent prep who knows that these references are not an extra - they are a core part of her or his job.

So all that said, I have no doubt that a little genius can get into a selective independent senior school, but I think going to an independent prep makes it that much easier.

A good prep is in constant contact with senior schools and starts engaging with parents and DCs in Year 4 to prepare them for admissions. DS is in year 5 and last year we were given a pretty clear idea which schools the head thought would be a slam dunk, which he could have a good stab at, and which would be perhaps a reach too far, and what we need to do between now and Year 7.

Good luck whatever you decide!

I had quite a long chat with the Head of Admissions at one of my DCs school whilst he was having his interview. My DCs state primary did do Heads references but she said it really wasn't an issue if they didn't. She also said (slightly off the record- she was leaving...) that some of the pupils from the well known London preps in particular would all come out with the same answers in interviews and would often write the same stories etc. She really did not like over prepped children for interviews. My DS in particular gave some bizarre interview answers but it seemed to do the trick.
They just need to have a bit of think about why they like the school etc, if they have any questions etc.
(She also said Prep school references have a lot less importance than parents think).

Really good post. 👌

My DC got a place in a very selective (top 20 in the country) school from a state primary. He had 5 or 6 months of tutoring I think. It’s doable but nothing is guaranteed with or without a private prep school

Really good post. Thank you. 😁

Oh yes the references- I think a really good state primary reference would surely go a long way as the state school has nothing to prove or gain by getting kids into a selective school. They are likely to be more honest I suspect

Same sentiment from experience.

From what I can tell, this approach is pointless if the primary aim is to increase the chances of getting into a top university.

University admissions applications tend to ask where you spent the majority of your secondary education- in state or private. They are alive to middle class parents gaming the system by switching to state for 6th form! So I’m not sure they get to count you in their state school stats if you were in private education for all but the last 2 years

And increasingly applications are contextual and ask eg whether the student had free school meals, whether they will be the first in their family to go to university, if they’ve been in care, if you live in a deprived postcode, if they’re on free school meals.
If the applicant is at a state school they also look at whether it performs above/at/below average, and whether it has a high proportion of pupils on free school meals. Switching from private to state for 6th form is highly unlikely to help in any of these fronts (unless you go to a state school that is poorly performing and/or has a relatively deprived intake).

It’s not just possible for ‘little geniuses’ to get into top independent schools from state primary. My son goes to one of the most highly selective schools in the country and 50pc of the intake is from state (including him)

It must be remembered that admissions departments are fully aware of the advantages that come with prep schools and so judge those entrants against each other, not against state school pupils (or vice versa). Not in terms of the entrance tests themselves, but in terms of interviews and heads’ references. They will know the state school kids will have had zero help from their schools re 11+ prep.

I think this is a really good thread to emphasise that options are open to move between schools at all stages.

Thank you to the OP and to all posters. 😁

I think I would call the secondary schools you have in mind and ask them what percentage of children they take from state primaries. Registrars and admissions people are always happy to chat to potential customers and they will have those figures at hand. You could also ask the head of the state primary you're looking at whether they regularly have children moving on to the secondaries you're interested in.

There's a lot to be said for keeping everything local when they're small – there are a lot of short playdates, birthday parties, and school events in the first few years and it's so much easier if it's all on your doorstep. (Another mum in my child's class had to make 6 trips back and forth to school last Friday as she has three kids and they're each in different after-school clubs and age groups for the school disco!) And if you live close enough to walk, so much the better.

Oh, and I hear that the crowd at the local prep round here is distinctly snootier than at its associated secondary school – partly because they don't offer any bursaries for under 11s; it's solely about the money.

Yes thank you so much to all posters- I didn't realise how much I didn't know, so this has been illuminating. I am reassured to hear from a couple of posters that St Albans is less selective than the likes of habs etc and easier to get in to. I've been quizzing the parent- governors and heads of the two state primary schools nearest to us and they've told me that a few boys each year tend to get in. Not zero, so that's reassuring! I will call st albans next and see if they can give me % coming from state schools as advised, but it's helpful to already have an indication of this from previous posters. Keeping everything local for parties, playdates etc would make life so much easier.

The private secondary schools take loads from state as posters above say. Be careful too as they can decide NOT to take kids form the feeder private primaries. I’ve heard of families being told in y5 to make sure they apply to other schools too. A kid at age 4 might not suit an academic school by 11 (or be on course for the grades schools need for their results tables)

We had one at Habs girls (from age 4). Loads of children join from state schools at 11+. We DID decide it might be easier to get them in as young as we could manage it - we had 5 at private schools but that does not mean no one gets in from state at 11. Lots do. St Albans will be easier than Habs.

(I think the post mentioned QE as a private school. It is not. It is a state school , albeit very selective).

I agree with this. DD was at what is generally considered an all through school, and not a particularly selective one at that, but in Year 5 or Year 6 her friend's parents were advised to look elsewhere from Year 9.

It was upsetting for her family at the time but she is now settled at another school and kids are better off at a school that suits their ability.

100% of them pass the entrance exams to the secondary schools of their choice

That's a load of cobblers.