Last minute panic - number of GCSEs?

[Ilikecheeses]

I’m about to submit the secondary form and a friend of mine mentioned they weren’t putting ‘x’ school and ‘y’ school because they only do 8 GCSEs and have one free option. I’ll admit I had a look at what range was offered to make sure it was balanced between academic/practical/some vocational but I didn’t look in detail at the number of GCSEs they allow their pupils to do so it’s come as a bit of a shock to me that the nice ranges of subjects I looked at is completely pointless.

School 1 - 8 GCSEs
English x2, maths, Science x2, French, history or geography, one free choice.

School 2 - 9 GCSEs
English x2, maths, science x3, French or German, history or geography, one free choice.

School 3 - 8/9 GCSEs
English x2, maths, science x2/3, an EBacc subject from french, German, history, geography or computer science, 2 free choices.

There are some other schools which offer 9 and have 2 free options. But the ones on my list, which are the ones mentioned above, all seem pretty similar to me. School 3 is more flexible and doesn’t insist on EBacc, the other 2 insist on EBacc. Does it matter? Or is this pointless worry? Should I stick with what I originally planned which was chosen based on other factors?

Oh and at Oxford open day we were told there was no point taking 4 A Levels, it was better to focus on 3.

DD's school was/is like that, but you can still do the other humanity as one of your free choices.

Also meant to say go with the school offering the most flexibility. My child who took 12 did so because they weren't allowed to do the subjects which were really important to them. But schools change the rules all the time, so no guarantees. Even when there is lots of choice, the choices can be in blocks so the pupil actually gets very little real choice. Our school has finally dropped the requirement for a language as it was so unpopular and too many did badly.

At DS's school top set do more GCSE's, so all those in top set maths also do Further Maths for example - could that be the case?

I'd go for school 2 personally. Although I'd like more free choice I would want a school that definitely has a sixth form as having to apply to (hopefully) get in and then start over at a new school at 16 isn't ideal IMO.

Good shout to get me to look into this @cantkeepawayforever

School 1 Extra GCSEs: none mentioned.
Offer DofE as an extra.

School 2 Extra GCSEs: Dance, further maths, Astronomy and Latin (as long as the Latin has been taken long enough for the knowledge to have been gained). All require regular commitment after school in either the GCSE years or the year the exam will be taken if not Y11.
They also offer DofE and John Muir as extras.

School 3 Extra GCSEs: Creative media and further maths. They have offered RE in the past. Again, requiring extra commitment after school in the GCSE years.
They offer DofE, John Muir, STEM and arts award as extras.

@twistyizzy Both 1 and 2 allow both history and geography to be taken as long as one is in the humanities choice and the other is in the free choice. School 2 allows for French and German to be taken with one in the MFL choice and the other in the free choice.

School 1 looks to have 0 flexibility and no extras.

School 2 has lots of extras and has pathways so there is some flexibility. Anyone who is expected to get 4+ in EBacc does what I originally said. If not then it’s English x2, maths, science x2, an MFL or language and 3 free options.

School 3 has some extras and seems to be pretty much do what you want. They don’t have pathways. They also say this on their website. The school doesn’t agree with them apparently.

Looks like the 30 minute walk school is a good fit.

my question to teachers- if the duel award is similar content covered and similar number of exams, just shorter - why do so many schools still choose to do the duel award rather than 3 separate GCSEs? Seems like it’s an easy extra GCSE to do 3 separate than 2 combined. What’s the benefit to do just two combined?

8 seems like a low number of GCSEs

DS did
English
English Lit
Maths x 3 (here in wales everyone now does 2 maths GCSEs and top set do them in year 10 so do additional maths on year 11)
Triple science
Welsh
Skills challenge

and then they get 3 free choices to he did Spanish, Geography and Computer science

Triple DOES have more content, and thus needs more time. The point is that ‘new’ double is absolutely sufficient for the step to A level to be straightforward, not that triple has no more content.

Dual award is ~10 lessons per fortnight.
Single sciences needs 14/15 or a way faster pace.

~50% more content, think of the revision load for the students if they aren't that keen on science in the first place.

Id totally echo @MorvernBlack re flexibility,I couldn't take Maths, Physics and Art at O Level (showing my age there) which would have been my perfect A Level combo.

It is not so much that the number of GCSEs are restricted to 8 in the case of school A, but rather that onerous restrictions are imposed to enable the hitting of Ebacc targets.

In 2022, 14% of 16 year olds were entered for 10 or more GCSEs, 51% 8-9 GCSEs, 25% 6-7 GCSEs and 10% fewer than 6 (see link below).

My children ended up with subject interests and strengths by Y9 and Y11 that I could not have anticipated in Y6. In part, the ability to take a range of GCSEs, like DT and CS, and not feel constrained to take Geog or History played an important factor in their educational development (at a comprehensive) and, for one DC, already has been beneficial in their career development and promotion.

www.gov.uk/government/publications/infographic-gcse-results-2022/infographics-for-gcse-results-2022-accessible

Interesting infographic @PerpetualOptimist thanks for that.

I think we have decided to put School 1 last based on what has been said here, DS preference towards 2 and 3 and I seem to have gone off 1 after doing a little bit more research this morning.
Still do decide between 2 and 3 for first place. Leaning towards 3, although something is still telling me to put 2 but I can’t put my finger on it. 48 hours to decide…. We can do this (I hope 😂)

I agree with pps who say they wouldn't base choice of schools on what GCSEs are being offered currently, it changes depending on what teachers they have and how many kids want to do subjects - a friend of DD's at a different school couldn't choose Drama or Music because too few kids had chosen it. Plus often for timetabling reasons they have to choose options from blocks.

Personally school 3 sounds the most sensible to me. I don't think any school should insist that every pupil should be entered for the EBacc, it's setting up a lot of kids (IMO) to fail if they struggle with languages or subjects with huge content like History. DD's school divided the year into different pathways and only the top third had to do Ebacc (though others chose to).

With regard to triple or combined science, DD chose triple because it was generally acknowledged that the single science classes had less disruption (presumably because the kids were more likely to want to be there?) and they got the more experienced teachers. She sort of wishes she'd only done combined and used her final option for textiles but she's very proud of her 9 in Biology and knows that Physics and Chemistry would have bought down her grades.

Her 6th form college accepts combined science for science A levels BUT you need to have either a minimum of a 6 in the particular science or a 6 - 6 in combined science. So you could get a 6 in (for e.g. ) Physics but 4s in the other two sciences and still do the A- level but a 6 -5 in combined meant that you couldn't. I think high grades in combined would be fine because pretty sure the A-level syllabus would cover everything you needed to know. DD is doing Psychology A-level after doing it at GCSE with loads who are new to it. They're covering stuff she did at GCSE so I guess she has the advantage that it's already fixed in her mind but that's the only advantage (and also she knew what she was letting herself in for!).

Triple has about one third extra content and probably better suited to being an option rather than condensing it into double science time. Unless a student is very bright, they will likely have a weakness in one of the areas - my friend's son was 9 9 in physics and chemistry with a 6 in biology and that 6 was the most time-consuming part.
Triple science was a factor for me choosing DS school (although in actual fact, we had no "choice" at all), so I was slightly nonplussed when he did not select it among his options. He really enjoys science but not enough to lose an option to it - and he kept his options open really nicely for whatever he might choose for A Level.

Oooh op the distance thing makes school 3 more attractive (walkable) but the sixth form puts 2 up there as well!

I would go 3 then 2 tbh. Where do pupils of 2 go post 16? I know it seems a long way off but it’s worth considering.

@clary I know, it’s so difficult! Both have good things going for them.

Pupils of 2 (the one with the 6th form and bus) will normally go to school 2 sixth form. Some go into apprenticeships, some to college but most stay put.

Pupils of school 3 (walkable, 8/9 GCSEs and flexible options) a lot go to school 2 sixth form, some into apprenticeships, some to college and some to school 1. This school is looking to, next year (sep 2024), introduce a 6th form.

I'm not sure that that I'd base my secondary school choice on whether or not it has a 6th form. My DD's school had a 6th form but it didn't offer a huge range of subjects and students had to often attend a mix of local schools to get the A levels they wanted. DD couldn't attend any of the 6th forms in our nearest town because none of them offered the language that she wanted to study.

I wouldn't get too hung up on the presence/absence of a Sixth Form either, in some parts of the country a majority of schools don't have Sixth Forms and pretty much everyone goes to a different school or college.

Also DoE is only worth doing if your DS really wants to take it for its own sake. It's not going to help on most university applications and is quite time-consuming for someone who isn't really keen.

Interesting one. I think based on what you have said and your DS preferences then I would say you are right to think schools 2 and 3 might be the better fit.

I agree with most that has been said about school 3 having the most flexibility. I feel this is important for you because your DS might be interested in the less academic subjects later on. Equally, this school would allow him to choose more traditional academic options if that is what he wants to do.

I don’t think there is much to worry about regarding double or triple science. If your DS goes to school 2 then he will have the benefit of having all three sciences, however, if he doesn’t like sciences, would he really be interested in doing 3 at the detriment of music or performing arts? Think about the long term impact this might have on other subjects.
On the other hand, at school 2, he will do the double science like everyone else and I assume if he is into science or very good at science the school will put him in for triple. There is nothing to loose and as it has been debated above, your DS will not loose out.

I think you have chosen schools based on the right reasons. I would say, as your school 2 has a bus, then to go with school 3. There is a lot to be said for having a local school with local friends. You can save the bus money for things he is interested in such as theatre group, music or however else you want to use it to benefit his education (this is what we are doing).

I would also agree with others. Do not choose based on whether or not it has a 6th form. However, I would be looking at what subjects the sixth form offers as this can give you an idea of the subjects the schools are encouraging and the level of academic or vocational focus they have. This can impact on offerings at GCSE and potentially (but not always) how much effort/curriculum time is given to a subject in KS3 as they will want to funnel pupils into taking the subjects they offer.

There is also the argument to say have a look at the spread of grades which the schools produce. This may or may not be important to you but it is worth a mention. Your child will not necessarily achieve those grades, but it is good to know whether a handful get a decent set of 7/8/9 each year and that those who take vocational subjects are supported to get maths and English. Don’t base your decision on this though. We didn’t, (chose a 25% English and maths and -0.7 P8 school) we just made sure at least some came out with 7/8/9s, and chose based on the factors you have already considered.

There is quite a lot of extra content for the separate sciences, it's just that they took care to make sure that anything needed for A-level is in the core covered in combined sciences.
For example, a lot of the extra physics content is space science, which isn't going to impact on their A-level work.

@Neveragainamidoingthat I don’t think I will be choosing a school based on the 6th form. I will admire I did sort of think about it and having the sixth form is an advantage. Also, not too fussed about results. School 2 does have the better results, however, that’s historical and school 3 is improving a lot in terms of results since they have gone to the more flexible curriculum and allowing free choice beyond the basics.

In terms of sixth form school 2 offers a wide range of subjects from traditional academic subjects, languages, technologies and BTECs. It is a very good sixth form, well established and lots of university and college links.

School 3 are proposing to start their sixth form off with English, history, geography, German, maths, biology, chemistry, physics, DT, art, dance and PE A levels as well as applied science, performing arts, music, IT, business and PE BTECs. With the view to explaining this offer as the sixth form grows.

In writing this, I think school 3s not-yet-in-existence sixth form will cater more towards DS current interested but, as mentioned, I don’t know what he will end up liking, we can always move for sixth form.

I think we might put school 3 first, then 2 then 1 after all the thinking I had done today. I’m going to ring both school 2 and 3 tomorrow and see if we can get a very last minute viewing and chances to ask questions. If we can I’ll take DS, completely ignore what the primary school says about absence, and see what we think. I think another look will really help me decide.

@LimeCheesecake
I think your question should actually be “why do schools put kids through the extra work and stress involved in triple science when there’s no particular advantage to doing it?”

And the answer to that is because parents think it is better and expect it to be offered.

Triple is slightly more enjoyable as an option, but I’m a believer in a broad and balanced curriculum for KS4 and using an option for it narrows the curriculum.

And teaching it in the average timetabled time for GCSE science which is, I think, about 9 hours per fortnight, means you have to go so fast, there is no time to enjoy it.

I know very few heads of science who like triple.

I think it's a shame that schools only offer either triple or combined science. Many moons ago when I did O levels you could choose to do either one, two or all three sciences which was ideal if for eg. you loved Biology but hated Physics. Nowadays what do you do in that position?

My DD did her GCSEs this year and took 12. I didn't realise there were schools only offering 8! I shan't tell her.