22% of students didn't get Grade 4 or higher in Maths or English this summer

[Itfelloffwithaclunk]

Did anyone else see Breakfast News with this item this morning? Over one fifth of students having to retake, because of a 'perfect storm' of high numbers taking them (a high birth year apparently), and returning to pre pandemic grade boundaries.

I'm really shocked. The very eloquent teacher from Greater Manchester was very interesting on this subject.

Why can't there be Maths and Advanced/ Further Maths at GCSE- so everyone takes a more general functional qualification which will be relevant and useful to all and informative for employers.

DS last year sat GCSE numeracy, maths and then additional maths - numeracy was more practical maths like APRs etc.

DD1 should be doing the same - and possibly year after but then the welsh shake up goes back to just one maths GCSE. I actually don't know what happening with additional maths as it's not a CGSE though very good for bridging gap between GCSE maths and A-level.

So it has sort of existed in one bit of UK and clearly not taken off enough to be kept.

It absolutely is too hard.

Kids do not need to know times tables, Column addition or long multiplication for example. We have calculators. That complete things with way greater accuracy than we do.

I see kids who are actually perfectly capable of maths totally put off the subject because they could never remember times tables(often because of working memory difficulties). In real life they never need to. They look shocked when I tell them I couldn't care less if they write by repeated addition the times table they are trying to do in the corner of the page. In real life they'd use a calculator.

Kids are perfectly able to answer questions on percentages and compound interest with the help of Google (as some some of my lower set kids cheating in a test proved). Why the smeg we expect kids to do stuff the hard way when they will never need to is beyond me.

When they actually need to know stuff in a real world perspective it becomes a hell of a lot easier to understand because it makes more sense, and they can still use computers/calculators to do the actual maths if they want.

Why can’t we have a system which is based on % = grade
e.g
10% = grade 1
20% = grade 2
50% = grade 5
90% = grade 9
So 10% of the paper has grade 1 level questions, the next 10% has grade 2 level questions and so on all the way up to grade 9. This leaves 10% unallocated to a grade but I suppose there could be a question from each grade level in this last 10% or something like that to give some wiggle room if a question was answered incorrectly earlier on?

This, especially for maths and English, where a certain % (22%?) are set up to fail each year (I don’t understand why we do this and then have a government that insists on everyone getting grade 4 - that’s impossible?) would work so much better.

16 year olds would know what % they need to aim for to get a certain grade. You need a grade 4? No problem, you need to get 40% on the paper which means you need to be secure in all the grade 1, 2, 3 and 4 material. You want a grade 9? No problem, you need 90%.

No more of this moving grade boundary, everyone against each other, no one knowing whether this years grades mean the same as last years grades. It would just be simple and fair. Universities manage it, why can’t school exams? Or maybe I’m being too idealistic?

@Neveragainamidoingthat I think @noblegiraffe can explain this much better than me but for the most part, education is a massive leverage used in politics. The standard has actually been getting lower and lower. If you have grade boundaries you can play around with, it's much easier to paint a pretty picture that kids are achieving on the whole the same or even better than before. It's much easier to control than if you have a standard pass/fail mark that's the same each year and across the board.

I partly agree with you @Icedlatteplease but without timestables you can't really work with fractions, or understand prime numbers, and you at least need to be able to divide by 10 and 100 if you want to work out percentages in your head.

I think perhaps there should be two different qualifications, a "life skills" maths which mainly involves using a calculator, and a higher level maths qualification which lays the ground for further study of STEM subjects.

In theory GCSE does cater for all because arguably a 1 or 2 grade is still an achievement. But the paper is just not accessible for students operating at lower level. It's quite soul destroying to sit through three 90 minute papers if you can't understand most of the questions.

@SoIRejoined I agree that without times tables higher order maths gets harder. However calculators are so good these days you can work with fractions, and factorise into primes with them, so you can get away without them, if you really need to.
I spent years doing times tables with my younger DD - they just don't stick, but she has problems with word retrieval too so it's not a great surprise.

Back in the days of O levels employers and fe colleges would accept subjects that showed skills.

I struggled with English so I took history, because rhe exam was 5 essays it was counted as showing literacy.

We need to have some flexibility like that, we also need an arithmetic qualification, employers say they want maths, they mean arithmetic in mist cases.

This has to be one of the most riduclous statments, in adult life are you really going to buy a car, a house or take a loan out because google thinks it's a good idea ? People need to be able to sense check even simple things like knowing you will have enough for the supermarket bill at the checkout. Being able to do this stuff quickly in your head is a massive advantage in life.

Massive advantage yes. Necessity no.

I love maths, i teach maths. But very rarely if ever do I do maths sums in my head. Frankly my dyslexic tendencies make it Impossible.

I know I have enough at the checkout because I do my food orders online. If I wanted to in the shop I'd use my phone on the way round.

Certainly you can use a calculator/computer to tell you how much a loan will cost overall.

If I'd been in a class that had told me I'll never get anywhere in maths because of mental maths, I'd never known I could get 98% in a maths degree paper.

Mental maths is one of the most dying skills going. Noone actually needs it, it's nice but there are so many ways round it.

Tbh I wouldn’t even say a massive advantage. I have literally never been in a position where doing mental maths would be an advantage

In fact ileven the checkout situation,if it really mattered, your be better getting out a phone and checking in case you made a mistake

The thing that strikes me is that a grade 3 is a really poor level of knowledge/understanding/skills for 22% of the population to be walking around with. Making decisions on who to vote for with...

I don't think grade 3 in maths or Eng lang makes much of a difference when voting. Interest in current affairs makes far more of a difference.

Also grade 3 is a wide band. I think there can be quite a difference between just above a 2 and just missing a 4.

(ps. Around 50% of MNs don't seem to be able to remember/understand BODMAS ...)

I quite like practicing mental maths

Surely it's good for cognition rather than relying on a calculator

I wasn't especially good at maths at school but it's practice and perseverance

So do I.
The swimming pool I go to has a 3 digit exit code on the car park that changes daily. I aim to have fully factorised it between leaving the building and getting into my car.

otoh, Both my DDs have working memory issues which means their MM is pretty rubbish.

So I see both sides.

How does whether you can do pythagorus or trigonometry mean you can't vote?

Does that mean there should be a minimum iq allowed for voting?

I love maths, i teach maths. But very rarely if ever do I do maths sums in my head.

How can you teach maths but rarely do mental maths? This makes zero sense. Say you're demonstrating solving equations on the board and you have to solve 3x+12=27; you're not going to get your calculator out and do that in front of the class?

I think one of the best predictors of whether a borderline kid is going to get that 4 in maths is their times tables fluency. It supports so many different areas.

There are plenty of well-educated people who make completely dunderheaded political decisions.

@Icedlatteplease I'm thinking more about their ability to read and understand election propaganda. I don't think they should be exempt from voting, I think they should be better educated to be able to make informed decisions!

This has to be one of the most riduclous statments, in adult life are you really going to buy a car, a house or take a loan out because google thinks it's a good idea ? People need to be able to sense check even simple things like knowing you will have enough for the supermarket bill at the checkout. Being able to do this stuff quickly in your head is a massive advantage in life.

I'm bad at mental arithmetic but good at maths - have maths A-level- but still have jumping in points for time tables. Turns out I was dyslexic with poor working memory so mental maths rather than pen and paper is harder.

DH had a maths degree - yet it was me sorting though the mortgages using on-line calculators and best buy lists before running though numbers with him and mortgage company. I do rough guestimates for tills or on-line shop.

It's like knowing my left and right - I don't "know" have to rely tricks or working it out - it's a pain in the arse - but it doesn't stop me living a perfectly normal life.

Our children take after me unfortunately but I did get them fluent in timetable and number bonds - took Percy parker, 4 years of daily mathsfactor and then other on-line sites for more practise - and the school.

I was told DS who just got A* in numeracy and maths and distinction in additional maths - would never be good at maths and was likely had dyscalculia by his first primary school. We were actually told he didn't have a maths brain.

What he had was an even poorer working memory than me glue ear and a school teaching maths though fun group games - what he needed was clear explanations and huge amount of practise/overlearning by actually needing to use the numerical facts in sums and understanding that while he may struggle with mental maths bit he didn't with understanding the concepts - eg for me an example would be having 7 X 8 be a blank spot well into 30s but understanding it was same as 7 *7+7 which could quickly work out.

https://ed.stanford.edu/news/learning-math-without-fear

I found this interesting piece - as it's what I think happened to my DC in Primary because they weren't fast with rote learning maths facts they were written off and if we hadn't step in they have stopped trying - but I think they are like DH flexible with numbers but they encountered more than one teacher who thought there was only their way to an answer.