Worried about DD 11+

[Annawintourssteak]

My DD goes to a local state school and does very well and consistently gets fantastic school reports. She’s in the top set for all subjects and has been selected for extra groups such as Maths Club for the most adept. She’s been having tutoring for the past year for the upcoming 11+.

She is naturally so diligent and studious and is working so hard as she’s very very keen to get in to the schools we’ve chosen. We’re also applying for sports scholarships as she plays one sport to a national level and another to a very high level.

She’s recently got atom and the scores she is getting on the mock tests are not good. I’m most concerned she won’t pass the 11+ and the effect this will have on her. I’m very very much saying ‘do your best, it really doesn’t matter what the outcome is, because there are great options either way’, but know how much she wants this and worry the messaging this will give - that working hard at things isn’t enough to succeed. I can’t bear the thought of the disappointment.

I know there is little anyone can advise, but has anyone else been in this situation and how did it play out.

Also, is there any leeway for coming from a state education and being super sporty.

Thanks

Also to add we’re in SW London

Has the tutor told you of any concerns? It doesn't make sense that she's in top set, maths club and tutoring but you've only found issues when she started atom.

The tutor’s raised one specific point with creative writing which we’re tackling, and there have been times when we go through maths papers with her where she’s not understood simple questions.

Apart from that, the tutor seems very happy with her. I’ve sent an email this evening asking her thoughts and letting her know my concerns.

She’s at a wonderful school which yields fantastic results with school entries, but I feel I genuinely have no idea if she’s at the level she needs to be at - despite the consistent teacher feedback.

Most of the London Private exams start from November till January so still time.

DD is also top set in state primary, good at maths, only started Atom and private maths paper from the October of Year 6 and see improvement with daily regular practice in just less than 2 months. Although before that we spent a lot of time preparing grammar tests in different format that probably helps a lot.

There are a lot of good London independent schools with excellent sports offering. I think top set state school student with one year tutor should stand a good chance, as long as you and your DD be open on the school options. Don't anchor the mind on the ONLY one or two schools which I know some do.

There is still time as Preplex said. And it sounds like she is in a good place!
Sometimes with Atom, I feel it is easy to misread /misunderstand some easy questions. (happens a lot for my son, who has homework set on there). I'd suggest to try to get used to the Atom style a bit more if the schools you are registering for use it for their assessments.
Also, register to a range of schools in terms of competitiveness, ensuring that she will have some positive results.
And, at the end of the day, keep in mind that even if it does not turn out how you expected (e.g. receive no offer), it's not the end of the world. My daughter was in a bilingual state school and we had underestimated the competition for 11+, she received no firm offer at all ... she tried again in y7 for y8 occ places and got 2 fabulous offers , and now has top predictions for her gcses. Good luck to your daughter!💐

Without knowing what you consider 'not good' and the schools that you are applying to, I would only put forward some general points

• Atom can be rather erratic in its scores - worth considering the scores over a longer period of time
• Even considering the above, we found that, on occasions, the type of questions was not aligned with the standard curriculum / type of questions of the schools in question
• Quite a few schools do not use iterative tests (like Atom) or even computer ones - there are DC that favour more 'traditional' written tests
• There is indeed time but I would advise against 'cramming', not least because it will add the sense of pressure for your DD

Another point is that a lot of London Prep school will do regular Atom practice or relevant 11+ practice in their class hours in these months as part of their preparation routine.

Being in a state school it will be disadvantaged by not having this in the class hours, so it is important to do regular practice to get used to the exam style to make up for it.

I know some state school parents love to mythologise about the hours and hours of 11+ prep given to prep school kids (which I always find amusing - how do they know given their kids went to state school unless it's second-hand information, which has little use. Hearsay is rarely valuable information).

From personal experience, prep schools do surprisingly little targeted prep for 11+. The education is more focused on breadth and depth of the curriculum (which, of course, may be useful in different ways for the 11+). But the idea that kids at prep schools spend hours a week doing VR / NVR / Atom / past papers / specific 11+ is risible, and is a mythology that parents who have no direct experience of prep schools should really stop propagating.

@Annawintourssteak Atom scores are notoriously erratic so I wouldn't get too anxious about them. Are they consistently low (and what do you mean by "not good" as @QuiteAJourney asked. One person's "not good" is another person's "pretty strong"!)

I also agree with @QuiteAJourney that you should avoid cramming once the exams actually start. Between now and the end of half term holidays is a good time to get some focused prep in - that's a good two weeks worth of work. But there's endless research to show that kids perform much worse in exams if they've been crammed throughout the process so you risk actually making them get worse results. Good luck!

“the idea that kids at prep schools spend hours a week doing VR / NVR / Atom / past papers / specific 11+ is risible, and is a mythology that parents who have no direct experience of prep schools should really stop propagating.”

I would suggest, if hearing contradict information in MN, the parents should find out themself to see the truth. It is not at all difficult to find out.

"I would suggest, if hearing contradict information in MN, the parents should find out themself to see the truth."

Mmm... not sure how parents of kids at state school are going to get first-hand experience of a prep school, unless they move their child to a private prep, which I'm guessing a parent with a child in Y6 is not going to do at this stage. 😂Personally, if I were seeking information, I'd rather take it from someone who actually has experience of a situation rather than someone offering second-hand feedback.

MN is a font of misinformation and unfortunately some posters seem hell bent on offering "advice" and "information" on things about which they have absolutely no direct experience. Even if well-intended, it's deeply unhelpful.

"not sure how parents of kids at state school are going to get first-hand experience of a prep school, unless they move their child to a private prep"

The parents would have circles outside its own school, so as the kids, there are weekend activities club, friends, family members, or aquantances work in the prep schools, all of whom have direct experience and much better one personal claim in MN.

"MN is a font of misinformation and unfortunately some posters seem hell bent on offering "advice" and "information" on things about which they have absolutely no direct experience"

I have to agree on this. Like some one never go through 11+ give advice on MN years ahead.

@Annawintourssteak as you are in SWLondon, maybe worth having a look at last year's and this year's threads on SWLondon 11+ (though this year's one is rather dormant, I am afraid).
My DD went through the 11+ in SWLondon. We came from a prep and I can assure that she did not hours and hours of Atom Learning at school (some of her homework was set on Atom, which was helpful to familiarise herself with it) and her school days in Y6 did incorporate some prep for the 11+ but were not dominated by it.
I do not know which schools you are considering - I can tell you that the likes of KGS, Emanuel or WHS (to name a few that I have direct experience of) have exams where the Atom approach is irrelevant. Happy to provide further detail and, if you feel more comfortable DM-ing me, feel free to do so.

Here you go the contrast info two prep prarents:

"From personal experience, prep schools do surprisingly little targeted prep for 11+"

"We came from a prep and I can assure that she did not hours and hours of Atom Learning at school (some of her homework was set on Atom, which was helpful to familiarise herself with it) and her school days in Y6 did incorporate some prep for the 11+ but were not dominated by it."

There are indeed a lot of information on last years thread on SW London 11+. Sometime in January a few parents last year (private or state) shared their preparation efforts in the thread. I made a summary at that time can be found in the link below. Note these are the parents post on MN with their personal experience surely one would doubt how creditable they are.

But think about the incentive and intention, why would one want to exaggerate this but not the opposite way?

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/secondary/4723610-sw-london-private-grammar-applying-for-year-7-in-2023?reply=123329581&utm_campaign=reply&utm_medium=share

@PreplexJ does indeed highlight some contrasting, rather than opposed views. Quite to be expected as not two schools are the same (despite the generalisations by some, mostly those with no direct knowledge.
Both sets of comments highlight that it is not the hours and hours of exam prep that some would believe / want others to believe although, of course, preps do prep (the clue is in the name). As to whether a prep child with no tutoring or outside help will be better prepared or worse than a state DC with personalised out-of-school preparation and tutoring, I won't possible comment as it is impossible to generalise.

@QuiteAJourney it is indeed difficult to compare one prep school vs the other. Also most of the prep parents, even have direct knowledge , probably would have on one particular school on that particular year.

However, I do think, it is important to find out what is the mainstream "general" or average efforts in a particular area to gauge the competitiveness of the School entrance.

This includes how much effort in general the students in prep schools, in addition to regular 11+ practice and homeworks (note no one would say hours and hours, such wording is too subjective to quantify), do tutoring or dedicated preparation outside school hours , during half terms and holidays.

Same as a state school students, despite zero hours on prep during school hours, how much effort would they spend on the rest of the day.

The general gauge is never applicable to an individual child in a particular school, but a good sample size would be representative and that would help the parents on their decision making process for sure.

@PreplexJ agree with the gist of your message - it would be great to have a comprehensive and objective dataset of prep at school and outside (although how that interacts with each DC's natural ability is another issue) in the absence of that, we need to rely on parents' self declaration of their direct experience.

I would say, rely on a good number of objective observations (direct or indirect is less relevant) , not a just one or two repetitive self declaration to make a representing conclusion.

@PreplexJ Not sure what you mean by observe as, by necessity, people would have to rely on people's account of their experience. As for the not relying on one to two repetitive self-declaration, I cannot agree more.
Also worth focusing on experiences directly relevant in terms of area and schools.
Hopefully all useful for the PP.

Firstly, there are no guarantees with 11 plus as we are dealing with 10 year olds.

Some prep schools do a tremendous amount of work. I know one prep school well as my good friend teaches there and they have an individual strategy for each child. My neighbours go to a prep school and get loads and loads of 1- plus work during school and for homework.

Atom is a good platform but does not always replicate the tests. I would say just keep going with atom. In addition please note some of the content on atom can be harder that typical 11 plus content.

I would spread the number of schools you apply for so you get a sure bet place.

However, what is really important to realise is that what is top at your primary school may be middle of the road at another. For example at my child's state school the teaching is mainly focussed on trying to get children to behave. My children would show as top of class but in reality I had to do the school work. One teacher has even told my child they are not suitable for 11 plus.

another teacher for my eldest child took it upon himself to give my child extra harder maths which really helped.

I am waiting some state grammar results.

I also found with my eldest that private schools (unless they were super selective type schools) were much easier exam wise.

And to add even with loads of support at prep schools parents still tutor. Another friend moved from state to private and then was really shocked that nearly everyone in year 4 up had private tutors on top .. so on top of expensive school fees she ended up also getting a tutor as decided to join in with the madness.

@QuiteAJourney What I meant is the direct experience from the parents is useful info but may not necessarily account as the most reliable one. In addition to this, one can certainly use different sources of information such as input from different prep school teachers (if you know some) , observations on which kids turn up in the weekend tutoring school or online tutoring class,
clues from au pair/nanny's explanation on those who miss the playday or party during weekend, or even the DC friends who probably would be more open on this than their parents to form a coherent picture of the situation.

I don't think you should worry at all, your DD sounds great and she probably just isn't used to atom learning and I agree their questions can be erratic and confusing. I'll be surprised if she doesn't get into Surbiton High and/or WHS with that profile, especially with her sports background.

Thank you for all your responses! It’s very useful to hear other people’s experiences.

The schools she is going for are all popular (KGS, Emanuel, Ibstock and Harrodian), and we didn’t put a safe bet down as we are very open to her going to the local state schools should she not get in to a school with fantastic sports options. Aware that Harrodian isn’t sporty sporty but it offers other benefits to us.

I also need to hold on to the fact she will get in to the school that is right for her. She’ll be fine wherever she goes… it’s just her potential disappointment that gets me!

Also she is the youngest in the year (late august baby). not sure if that impacts the sas scoring.

@Annawintourssteak Atom mentioned their SAS score is adjusted by age so summer born kids should be accounted for overall comparison , did you put the write DoB in Atom?

https://resources.atomlearning.co.uk/en/knowledge/what-is-a-standardised-age-score