Is DS's lack of motivation with A levels normal?

[MerryMarigold]

Just finishing Y12. Dire mock results (B,D,E). He does do some schoolwork, but I wouldn't say he works hard - he will look up answers and he maybe puts in 1 hour a day at most. He doesn't go out, he doesn't work, so he has time to put in extra work but he doesn't. He mostly plays Fifa, or watches stuff on Netflix. He just doesn't seem motivated or interested in what he's chosen, and chose subjects he's always struggled with because he thought they were 'useful'! The subject he got the B in is something he enjoys and is 'easier' than Maths and Physics. I can't relate. I did subjects I enjoyed and was good at. He is convinced he is not 'talented' and seems to want to be one of those people who gets a B with minimum effort and an A* with some effort. Realistically for him, he can get a C with a LOT of work. I can see why he's not that motivated.

I don't know where to go from here. He is ND, not fully diagnosed (he has an ADHD diagnosis, but I think he shows more ASD symptoms to be honest). He did not want to go to college to do something maybe more suited to him because he did not like the travel (it was about 1.5 hours each way) nor the 'difference'. Staying at school was simple and he knows it well/ knew the people etc.

I have got him some tutoring for the Maths, which he said he wanted after the E grade, but he is dragging his feet over it (eg. logging in 5 mins late, not really wanting to do it), and I resent that when I am paying a lot for it.

What can I do to help him? What are the options? I am dreading Y13 and the amount of stress/ damage to his self esteem.

Thanks. We have no hope of an EHCP. My friend had to go to appeal just to get the assessment for EHCP! Her son is diagnosed with ASD by Great Ormond St and he attends school around 30% (he's in Y10). There is no way on this earth I could get one.

@curtainnetblind , thanks. That's great advice. I agree on the C/D but he won't see it. He says he's aiming for an A in order to get a B. This is ask talk. We have come up with a programe of revision but he's been unwell today (also explains the massive meltdown) so hasn't done any.

@MerryMarigold you say he hasn’t done any revision “today”. What on earth is he revising for with just a few days left of this academic year? The exams for this year a done. No wonder he is overwhelmed by it all. It’s about to be the summer holidays. I expect he might be given some assignments to do during the holiday but he doesn’t need to be constantly revising surely?
I don’t mean this to sound rude (apologies if it does) it just sounds over the top for the summer - let him have a break and enjoy the summer holiday.

@Needmorelego his "revision" is the revision of his work that he covered in year 12 as his grades are way below where he wants them to be. Yes it is the summer holidays, Ds2 is year 12 and has been set work by college to complete and is voluntarily doing other work which will benefit him in year 13. If I take Ds2 as an example, he is awake for about 14 hours a day so has plenty of time to divide that up into a small amount of work and the rest doing whatever he wants. He broke up on 7th July and goes back 5th September.

The OP's son wants to improve his grade from an E which is going to require commitment and timetabling in a revision slot. He has options which include repeating the year but it comes with complications re funding and he doesn't want to change his college. He could drop out altogether but it seems he doesn't want that either. The B is great but the other D and E suggest he is missing a lot of knowledge that he will be building on for year 13, especially maths.

He also wants an apprenticeship, they are pretty cut throat, they aren't just open to 18 year olds but anyone who wants to apply to it. Finding one can be far more difficult than applying to uni. Sometimes there is only 1 in the region, where they advertise these apprenticeship roles is all over the place. It is not something we have looked into as both of my sons are/were on the uni pathway. The parents' evening we went to had a wealth of knowledge and support for students wanting apprenticeships but not all sixth forms and colleges offer brilliant support. The fact that the OP's school didn't warrant an EHCP for her friend's son is very telling about their SENDCo provision.

Ah, poor kid. Sounds like the perfect storm of lots of issues.

How did he perform at GCSE? I remember the jump from GCSE to A Level felt really big, and with a much bigger emphasis on just getting on with things plus a lot of self-directed study. I also suddenly found myself (a bright kid from a poorly performing school) in a sixth form environment where I no longer felt like one of the high-achieving students who could breeze through everything relatively easily. Suddenly I had to try hard and that affected my confidence hugely.

I now know that I am neurodivergent, and looking back I struggled so badly with motivation and executive function it’s a miracle I got through them at all.

I also messed up with my subject choices! I do understand wanting to do subjects that “look good” rather than what I was good at. For some insane reason I felt I should do A Level Maths (if I’m honest, I wanted to do it for the prestige) but now, with the benefit of hindsight I know that my processing speed when it comes to numbers isn’t great, and I just couldn’t follow the lessons at the fast pace they were taught.

I bombed Maths at the end of year 12 and dropped it. Ended up picking up a Mickey Mouse A Level (I won’t say what 🤣) and completed it in a year.

You’re right to think he can’t carry on with year 13 the way things are going. But I do understand that he’s emotionally volatile and having that conversation will be tough (I have autistic kids too so I really get it).

He could very well be autistic and ADHD. I honestly think they occur together more often that not, and it’s like tossing a coin re. which of the two they are diagnosed with first.

He's on work experience for the past 2 weeks but it's part time. He will have about 3 weeks off in the summer hols when we're away, but apart from that he needs to work on maths and physics if he wants to carry on with those subjects. Getting a D and E next year is a waste of 2 years and he'd be better off doing something else than carrying on and getting that. I'm open to him doing other things and have given him a lot of ideas, and him having 6 weeks off, but currently if he wants to stick in 6th form he does need to work. They have exams in Sept very soon after they get back to see if they can improve their predicted grades.

Thanks @Jellycats4life. What you've written is all so true. At GCSE he did ok. He got mostly 6s, 5s (Spanish, Product Design), 7 for Maths (probably did 5x as much work for it than any other subject. Nearly got a 7 in Biology and History with little work) and 8 for RE (teacher assessed grade though). His processing is quite slow, so fast-paced teaching is difficult for him. He needs to go back over lessons but that's where the motivation kicks in, and he doesn't have it. I really don't think highly academic/ competitive subjects are his thing but he gets so upset if you imply that. He's doing so well in his other subject (not really Mickey Mouse, but more creative). The perfect storm is not just his additional needs but also his siblings are very academic and doing extremely well (still only Y9) and he compares himself all the time to them.

@MerryMarigold I gonna be honest here - I don’t think A-Levels are for him. He doesn’t seem interested. Hasn’t chosen subjects he particularly likes.
Unless he has a very specific goal that requires A-Levels in those subjects I would encourage him to do something else.

I think if he is in complete denial, there is not much you can do. I have taught students like this before- sitting on an E, and adamant it'll all be fine, adamant they'll do more work next time. And yes, there is always an excuse why they couldn't do XYZ. If he missed a topic because he was ill, why hasn't he caught it up before the mock? When is he planning to do this?

It's good he has an idea of a field he would like to go into, even if it's very specific. All I would say is that he does have options going forwards, and it's probably not worth arguing yourself into the ground over this.

1. If he ends up with less than ideal grades in Y13, retaking the year will likely be an option. He may even be able to "fast track" a new A-level, instead of retaking his worst option. Maybe that won't be right for him, but it would be an option in most schools.

2. If his grades aren't quite right for the courses he wants, or he doesn't have a portfolio, then a foundation year may be the right option to bridge the gap between sixth form and uni.

3. If he completely crashes and burns, he may be able to find an apprenticeship that's similar to what he wants, or alternatively access courses may be able to get him into a uni course he wants.

If he's in denial, then it may be that seeing the grades in black and white next summer is needed? Maybe it's time for you to take a step back? I know that's not easy though.

OP,
He has been diagnosed with ADHD, is there a reason why he isn’t on any medication for his ADHD? I think 1-2hrs revisions day is more than enough and he is showing motivating and dedication. I am thinking that it may be more lack of ability to focus and retain information - a key part of ADHD- that is holding him back.

As for car design apprenticeships they do exist.
https://www.jaguarlandrovercareers.com/content/Apprentices/

https://www.bmwgroup.jobs/gb/en/opportunities/apprentice.html

Do you think car design is a bit of a pipe dream? As in, it’s his special interest and can’t envisage doing anything else? Kind of reminds me of my kids, who obviously want to be YouTubers because that’s a totally viable life plan 😉

I agree with @Postapocalypticcowgirl in that maybe you need to let him fail, because it doesn’t look like he’s able to see things objectively right now. A hard lesson, but maybe a necessary one. But of course hope for the best that he manages to knuckle down, despite the ND challenges which obviously aren’t his fault.

@MerryMarigold why isn’t he doing design based A-Level subjects or equivalent (btec/T-Level etc)?

I used to teach A level Graphics. Quite a few got jobs in car design after their degrees. It’s not that rare.

I was told there’s no jobs in the area of design l did. Still managed to use that degree for 35 years

Thanks for looking. There are apprenticeships but not in design. Engineering, HR, finance, IT etc.

He has some weird rigid ideas (ASD?) and he thinks Maths and Physics is the only way into cars, alongside Product Design. Cars are his passion. He's also convinced he's not good at art (in the traditional sense, his drawing is not great, he's also dyspraxic) or that art is for girls (he's extremely insecure, bit his at going against the grain). Unfortunately his school didn't offer photography, which he'd have been great at. He just has a fantastic 'eye'.

@Jellycats4life and @Postapocalypticcowgirl you are probably right. I need to back off. I'm pretty hands off most of the time, and have really let him do what he wants this year. I know I need to let him fail - I don't have much choice . He's 17, I can only give him choices and advice. But his self esteem is so low already, I'd much rather that he did something which he enjoyed/ was good at and that would really build his confidence. It's so hard to watch your child fail when they already feel awful about themselves. I've talked to him about forcing a square peg into a round hole. He just feels terrible that he's not a round peg ☹️.

Anyway, had a good chat with head of 6th form today. She basically was encouraging him to go elsewhere! (He wasn't in the conversation as he had a different appointment and she couldn't do any other time). I think she was agreeing with me that he needed this year to stay at school and grow up a bit but it's going to be very difficult for him to work so hard at subjects he doesn't love. And it is going to take A LOT of work over the summer and next year on a continual basis to get him up to a C.

Is it worth going to the college with him and seeing what courses and support they offer.
Maths and Physics when you aren’t naturally good at them sounds like he’s setting himself up for an absolutely miserable year and failure.
For self esteem would a pt job help. My dc is at McDonalds. They’re really good at working around school/college. She has a physical disability and some lads in kitchen have autism.

Er, engineering IS design when it comes to cars.

@MerryMarigold
You haven’t answered my question regarding ADHD medication? It’s one of the conditions most helped by medication.

My DD cut her losses towards the end of the first year of A-levels, she probably has undiagnosed ADHD, and although she was okay with grades, she hated it, and she really struggled to do the work and couldn't see the point. I was fine with her leaving, it was during Covid so she worked in a café for a bit until that was shut down, then got an NHS apprenticeship and she's now thriving studying nursing though a foundation course. I know you said he doesn't want to go to university, but I worked out that DD would be able to do a foundation year in a range of subjects to overcome the lack of A-levels.

I also agree that you need to step back a bit, I think sometimes pressure from parents can push kids the other way and not take responsibility themselves for what they want to do, it can also create a more stressful home environment, which makes them less able to think logically. It is really difficult, though, and one of the reasons that I was happy for DD to leave was that I knew she had a great work ethic through her part-time job at the café and was confident she would find her way through things in the end.

How's this for a plan.

Over summer he does 1-2 hours of revision, probably best using the maths genie website and he creates a photography portfolio?

It doesn't matter so much that he has not taken A Level photography but a portfolio can get you on to certain degrees. Start with photography and then possibly build up with other art / craft projects.

It's not an apprenticeship but this course would give him an idea of the skills he would need.

https://www.uwtsd.ac.uk/ba-automotive-design/

@MerryMarigold i can relate! My ds is a very different personality - totally focused on his busy social life and his gym routine - but is also headed for low grades next year and is in denial/unmotivated to do the work.

And he has ADHD and slow processing! Which I think is the key thing here. Ds is massively behind and needs to catch up, we had a ‘crisis’ meeting with school last week and he’s still only done a couple of hours of catch up since. We’ve talked about him giving up, or retaking year 12, but he just thinks it will all be fine.

I’ve looked for apprenticeships and there are some around. I really don’t want to see ds get Ds and Es. But the reality is, he can still apply for the type of apprenticeships that I’m looking at now, this time next year. If he does badly he’ll have to go for a level 3 apprenticeship instead of level 4. It won’t be the end of the world, although I agree it’s a waste of a year!

Not quite.

You can do a degree in car design that focuses on the aesthetics alongside the engineering. That’s what design is. A mix of function and aesthetics.

If he was doing just what’s under the bonnet that would be engineering.

Revising over the summer is hugely important, especially with lower mock grades. Our 6th form are reassessing early Autumn and will increase predicted grades for uni applications.