Secondary education appeal coming up

[Cellardoor93]

Any advice would be much appreciated. I can't think straight with all this going on. I'm finding it really difficult which I'm sure alot are. I'm going to put everything down. If anyone could help me pick points with schools statement that would be so helpful. I have a few things but struggling. This school is not out catchment school although is local we do not meet overadmission criteria.
We will call my child V for the purpose of this

For background information we applied for a school at our old address. Only 1 choice yes risky but I knew whatever school he was allocated over there wouldn't be a possiblity with the looming move by the council housing register. On offer day we weren't allocated preference school and given another local to old address. I then updated preferences to a local school to new address. Recieved letter telling us he did not get in as full and now all local schools to our new address full

Reasons my child needs to attend this school-

1. He would easily be able to travel to appeal school on a school bus if he was to go to allocated school from home he would be on 2 public buses and a walk around the town centre and certain area alone with no peers travelling with him. Most children would struggle with this length of journey, given V sensory processing disorder this is a impossility due to his naivety and I feel he could be placed in extreme danger due to no stranger awareness or boundaries.

2. The style of teaching at  appeal school mimicks his iep the classes are of mixed ability meaning he wouldn't feel at a disadvantage because of his special educational needs , and the individualised style of teaching would help him thrive as did his iep and one to one classes. He has made such progress with his iep from where he was it clearly works for him and I don't want him to get left behind. 


3. The style of attainment and marking, when we looked round they showed how they mark each work as it's done, giving guidance and the chance for V to respond this would provide encouragement to him and make him feel heard.

4.The pastoral care at appeal school in his own words made him feel safe, there is someone always in pastoral office and they have workshops for anxiety, anger and mindfulness which would benefit V aswell as an In house counselling team. 

1. Year 7 have their own time to eat and their own toilets which would ease his transition. The deputy head told V herself that he could get a pass for the library to eat in there if he was overwhelmed. The fact that the deputy head took the time to offer this information to V reassured him that his feelings are valid.

.appeal school provide solo forms for children attending outside the priority admissions area so that they are in a group together so they are along side pupils who have the same worries and concerns, V has had to deal with this twice this year with moving school once already. So be encouraged by this additional input something allocated do no have available, V would be the pupil living furthest away from the school I'm sure, therefore this would be a significant disadvantage.

1. V would create friends from his local area helping to build his already knocked resilience and wellbeing. V already has a friend attending Appeal school. He found moving from his primary school 3 months ago significantly difficult.

1. V wants to study German and take it at gsce which is something appeal school offers from year 7 which allocated don't offer. V was able to observe a German class on our tour and he expressed great interest and excitement to be able to study that subject. I feel this fact alone that V is showing an intrest beyond his current curriculum is a significant thing for him as it stepping out of his comfort zone and has come from him hiself rather than us as parents trying to engage him. That one factor that has sparked an enthusiasm in him to learn speaks volumes. It would also enable him to communicate better with his family in Vienna and go beyond the basics.

1. Due to V sensory processing disorder he is at more risk of developing mental health issues I feel V attending a school so far away from his peers and community will prevent him from forming important relationships that could prevent him from speaking out. It is important that V feels safe and the journey to allocated school from home is causing him high levels of anxiety and this does not promote positive mental health.

10. If he was to have arranged school transport he wouldn't be able to take part in after school activities something which he enjoys as he thoroughly enjoyed doing gardening club at school as the arranged transport would only pick up and collect at school hours ( I have checked the terms and conditions) at preferred he would be with his peers so would be able to travel with them.

11. The process of how social housing works has put V at an unfair disadvantage to his peers we were rehoused by council because of V medical needs we could not plan where or when we would be moving. I bid on the house on 16th November and the deadline for preference change was the 30th. I called and emailed the council for an answer and they didn't offer me the house until 8th Dec. I feel this is completely unfair on V. I know if we had been in this property before the deadline we would have been offered a local school.

12. Appeal school have a retro gaming club that V is really looking forward to attending, as he finds gaming therapeutic.

This is a list of the things V faces with his sensory processing disorder both inside and outside of school

• certain sounds, sights, smells, textures can create a sensory overload

• both sensory avoids and seeks, his reactions and behaviour change depending on the environment he's in

• often squirms and fidgets

• invades other people's personal space

• often gets distracted or feels anxious

• is clumsy and uncoordinated ( primary did try and help with this with balance workshops for him)

• if he is feeling relaxed and happy and is in an environment where they feel comfortable, he thrives but if he's stressed and anxious his symptoms flare up and because of his diagnosis his education is already compromised.

• reacts to loud noises with fright

-easily distracted by background noise

• has a limited diet (is under dietician)

• little spacial awareness

• uses too much pressure when writing and struggles with hand writing and presentation

• tenancy for meltdown

He is constantly in fight of flight mode everyday he battles feeling overwhelmed and, anxious .

Time is closing in and its been a nightmare to say the least to get help with supporting letters, because we moved doctors his new doctor feels she doesn't know him enough but has written a letter of support its not the best. His old doctor can't help as he's not a registered patient anymore.
His new primary school have been little help as again they dont know him and in the 3 months he's been there the head and his form tutor have left. I have a letter of support from his old head who had known him from nursery, and his year 6 tutor post stating in their professional option they believe appeal school is better for him and why. The organisation that did his original asd assessment won't help as his diagnosis was over 6 years ago and said I had to contact our areas sensory occupational therapist (also told me he would have been referred if diagnosed now but was no service back then! Great) I contacted the service and was told the waiting list is significant and school would gave to refer him. I spoke to his teacher and sent numerous emails about it and now she's left and the head so yeah I'm getting no where. My poor son 😥😥😥
So the evidence we've managed to get is

• letter from original gp stating original diagnosis and how it affects him and us as a family. This isn't specific to school but the house move
• proof of banding and when we moved
• letter of support from the councils medical officer

-letter of support from new gp

• original diagnosis and asd report
• some of his past ieps showing progress
• background history from his original asd report stating he has a genetic link on both sides for anxiety and depression and is vulnerable to this

-letter from previous headteacher stating why in her opinion he needs appeal school

• letter of appeal from V year 6 teacher at previous school

I think that's it. I've tried believe me I've tried it's been so hard too being Easter holidays everyone seems to be away. I've cried many tears over this I feel like no one wants to help sometimes 😥😥😭

All the local schools are full even the suggested one they wrote about in the appeals pack
I will post the schools side too

The only thing I want to ask the PO is how update is the information from the head as he's mentioned about the dining hall being used 2.7 times but has failed to mention that year 11 have their own dining hall and they had a new 17m x 17m outdoor dining hall built within the last few years.

Thankyou sorry I know its long. It feels good to get it off my chest 😅😅

It wouldn't let me attach

I'll try again without adding my personal details this time 😅

Also his bus journey is just over 7 miles not the 5.7 miles they have suggested here. Not sure if this has been done as the crow flies but unfortunately he isn't getting a plane to school 😅😂

Hi, I do not know about appeals, but I did not want to read and run. Hopefully, this bumps this, and someone knowledgeable reads it. Are you on the waiting list for the school? I hope you get a place in that school for your son!!

Thankyou for commenting cheesecake 53. I am on the waiting list he's currently 25th but it keeps changing he was 20th the 28th but as of. This week 25th.theres 19 other families appealing. Thank you so much so do I it's amazing and just what he needs to continue to thrive. I've just received a letter from his senco too

Looking at your case first...

1. Arguments about travel generally don't win appeals. However, if the journey is more than 75 minutes each way you can argue that it is unreasonable. Even without that, your son's medical issues mean this issue may fly.
2. If you can back this up with evidence from professionals saying he needs this style, that would be a decent point. Without that evidence, it may not carry much weight.
3. No harm in making this point but don't spend too much time on it as it is unlikely to carry any weight.
4. If you can show that the appeal school has more suitable pastoral care, that will help. Without that, your son's preference is unlikely to carry much weight.
5. Again, this point will be stronger if you have professional evidence to back it up.
6. I may be wrong but I don't think this will carry much weight.
7. Friendship groups are generally very fluid at this age so, unless you have professional evidence that he has a greater need than other children to be with friends, this is unlikely to carry any weight.
8. This is a strong point. Highlight the family in Austria, any current knowledge of German and anything he is doing to pursue his interest.
9. This really needs professional evidence to back it up. The panel won't be interested in you "feeling" that the allocated school will cause problems for him.
10. For this to carry any weight you need to show specific activities where he has an established interest but won't be able to take part due to the transport arrangements.
11. Unlikely the appeal panel will be interested in this. The fact you would have been offered this school if the council had offered you the house earlier isn't really relevant. By all means include it, but I wouldn't expect it to sway the panel.
12. Another strong point if you can evidence his interest.

You appear to have some good evidence to back up at least some of the points. I can see that it isn't ideal for the reasons you've set out, but you are in a better position than if you were making the above points without any evidence.

My next post will look at the school's case.

I find the school's case somewhat repetitive. The only points it really seems to make are:

• Small classrooms - note that a decade ago these would have been regarded as adequate for 30 pupils.
• Overcrowding and H&S concerns - ask them how many accidents they have had in the last 3 years that were directly attributed to overcrowding. The answer is almost certainly none.
• They don't like the appeal panel admitting appeals, to which my reaction is tough. Ignore this point. It may help you if the panel think the school is trying to bully them. I certainly wouldn't have put anything this direct in the school's case if I had written it.
• General moans about lack of space.

I note that they have only quoted their net capacity. The net capacity assessment actually comes up with a range, and they can set their net capacity somewhere within this range. It would be useful to find out what the range was. If they have set the net capacity near the bottom of the range, that will help you.

You mention that they have had a new dining hall built recently. It would be worth finding out when the net capacity was set. If there has been any new building since then, it suggests that they would come up with a higher figure if they recalculated today.

The one real negative I can see is that they have already gone significantly over PAN for September. However, they have done so voluntarily. Why would they do that if they are as crowded as they say? Can they really only take 2 more per class? And the number they've got would appear to be 31 in most classes, but 32 in 3 classes. Why not take all classes to 32? Worth making the point to the panel.

PRH has covered a lot, and my one addition would be to put a summary at the beginning of his diagnosis and overall issues. It's a bit difficult with the way you have laid it out atm to get an overall picture of him and what his needs are.

And ideally as much evidence about his needs and what they mean as possible.

The school appear to have already over offered this year, and additional 18 pupils already, which will be an issue unfortunately.

However - It will be worth asking what their current acceptance number for Sept is - if it is less than the 292 they offered (which it might well be as the agreement is usually that a school will overoffer but not fill from waiting list if some get declined) - then you could argue that they were prepared to have 292, so they do have "space" as they has already said they could cope with 292.

Hi

I don't want to dispute your expertise, but I noticed the school made the point that they have taken some classes to 34 in order to accommodate small group teaching for students who need this.

This is very normal in secondary schools- although the average class size would be e.g. 32, the aim is normally to have a "bottom set" which would be much smaller than this- even 5/6 years ago <15, now <20 is seen as desirable. This means other groups therefore become larger than average.

Maybe appeal panels don't consider this, but it is the norm in most secondaries to try and support the students who struggle the most.

Yes, I see that but, for my money, they have wittered on at length about other points and haven't really driven that one home. I think it would have been stronger if they had put some numbers on it - how many groups over 34, how often, etc.

Hi prh47bridge, thank you for taking the time to look through all my stuff, I know it is tedious and I appreciate it massively.

1. I have read consistently that travel doesn't hold much in appeals and that children can travel for up to 75 minutes each way. I am going to do the journey at the exact time he would and walk up from where the bus would drop him off as it is hard to gage when its not the school and work rush hour ( I did do this journey the other day but in the middle of the day at it took me 70 minutes one way. Will definitely be doing this at rush hour, the time when he would be travelling to measure this accurately. Even if it is acceptable for up to 75 minutes each way, is this based off of a neurotypical child? It baffles me that the NSPCC state children under 12 are rarely mature enough to be left alone and should not be left alone for for long on their own. It also goes on to state that while its not an offence to leave them, the law says its an offence to leave them alone if it places them at risk, I cant understand it when I would be placing him at risk :'(. I have a doctors letter to back this up but its not the best at the new doc doesn't know us as a family so its not her opinion as such. I do however have a letter from his headteacher stating that in her opinion V is not developmentally ready for such a level of independent travel. I also have a letter from the SENDco stating the risks in her opinion and which of his SEN needs it doesn't meet.
2. I have this point backed up by his headteacher that states in her words '' professionally she agrees V would be very self conscious if placed in a low level ability group, he has the attitude and aptitude of a higher level learner and would thrive in mixed ability classes.'' I am pushing for a consultant to write some evidence too but I'm not sure if this is going to be possible as she has been on annual leave.

3 Thank you for your feedback I wont spend too long on this I will just make a brief statement, the head has also provided her thoughts on this too.

4 I have seen so much online about their pastoral care and evidenced it on the tour also but really really struggling to add further to this point. What kind of things should I be saying, what will hold up in the meeting?

5 Again I have the headteachers professional opinion on this and how she believes V would need this level of adjustment to stop him being overwhelmed in line with his diagnosis. SENDco have also stated in their letter that he needs these provisions to have a positive transition. She states her opinion and what SEN need of his this meets. She also references back to the same difficulties he had relating back to his transition to school and how the targeted support has helped him with this. Doctors notes briefly outline some of these difficulties too.

6 Thank you , I feel I need to bring this up but I wont spend too long with this.

7 Thankyou , again I wont spend too long on this either.

8 Great! Thanks, he is a novice, knows very basic German , but seeing that class when he went to tour the school sparked his interest even further which can only benefit his family relations too. This school is actually one of the very few in the area to offer German, and especially German from year 7 up until gcse. He is now taking online German lessons they are very child focused so its nothing heavy, but he is so ready to learn. We haven't seen family in Vienna for a while due to covid and DS was younger ( 6/7 years of age) when he saw his great grandma and cousins in the flesh but it would help their relationship so much even just on facetime ! I'm not sure how I can work this effectively being perfectly honest.

9 I have evidence again from the headteacher stating she knows V is vulnerable to feeling overwhelmed and knows he is developmentally not ready for this independence . SENDco also state that he must have a have a routine he can have control over; if he attends nearby school he can have control over his journey to and from it. If he is at a school which is not local, he would have no control if the transport system was not working or if there was a snow day; he would not be able to cope with issues like this and states SEMH/ physical and sensory need. Letter from previous doctors says that his sensory processing disorder causes issues with his interactions with other people and this impacts him, although I know not case specific , believe me again, I have tried. I have his original psch report from the ASD team that states everything that was noted about him, his background and how he is at risk of poor mental health.

10 So at the new school there are a number of clubs that the have running that I absolutely know would be beneficial to V. At appeal school They have Robotics club, Retro gaming club, and a chess club also ( he is incredibly good at chess, his old headteacher taught him to play and V would spend many lunchtimes sat playing chess with him old headteacher) I have reached out to him to see if he can provide evidence of this. They also run a homework club afterschool that has teacher support, this is a much for V. At allocated school they run a homework support group that isn't teacher lead. We have persistent issues with trying to get V to focus and do his homework once he's left the school environment so this would still be very beneficial . He would not be able to access this provision as the school taxi service would have gone if they were to provide free transport to him. Any advice on how I can approach this answer properly would be very appreciated. The only evidence I have to support this is the head teacher stating she knows V would respond well if he was able to access afterschool provision.

11 Thank you I do feel I need to mention this as it really has put him at an unfair disadvantage but I wont spend long talking about this. I have the evidence of this from the medical officer at the councils housing office for accessible homes.

12 Here's the thing, he uses gaming all the time as a therapeutic source when he's anxious, upset, stressed etc., but how do I evidence this?

I agree.

1 I will note that these would have been regarded as adequate a decade ago
2 I will definitely ask this as i cant find anything to suggest this, and none of ofsteds within the last 10 years mention anything about overcrowding and infact the data doesn't suggest its effecting the quality of teaching as the results keep getting better year on year (bar covid).
3 interesting , lets hope the panel form their own opinions on this!

Yes so I found their net cap range and its right at the bottom the publish range is 1320- 1467.

I will ask admissions to see if they can tell me when it was set. I just find it strange that he doesn't mention that year 11 have a separate dining room so that is roughly -267 students and then the new outdoor dining hall too which is 17m x 17m.

I have just come off the phone with the la, they couldn't tell me, when the net capacity was set, what the current acceptance number is although she said 282 places were allocated and all have been accepted. She couldn't tell me how many in the past of appeals for this school were upheld. She also couldn't tell me how many accidents in the past 3 years that were directly attributed to overcrowding, are these questions I should email the school directly about? Do they have to tell me ? Or do I want for the factual stage of the appeal to bring this up?

I know I was disheartened to see that they are already so over, but then in one breathe they say they cant admit over 264 then agree to admit an additional 21? i will definitely bring this up.

sorry I am new here I don't think I quoted you in my last 2 answers

Hi PatriciaHolm, thank you so much for answering my thread. Great idea I will definitely take that on board. They told me that 282 places have been allocated and accepted at this time. Which fits in with the additional 18 places they allocated but doesn't take into account the other 3 that they took in after offer day. I'm so confused by the numbers.

This is all I can find on appeals numbers in my area, its from 2018 too :(

For secondary school places, 276 appeals were heard in local council last year, the equivalent of 3.5 per cent of all admissions. Of those heard, 115 were successful, or 41.7 per cent. 2018

sorry for all the questions, does anyone have any examples on what I will be asked ? This is causing me so much anxiety trying to think of everything I could be asked

Re gaming, unless he is in any clubs, just tell the panel what he does now.

Information - the school must answer any reasonable question you ask to help you prepare your appeal.

Re numbers, their case isn't entirely clear but I think they agreed to go 15 over PAN and then took another 3 after offer day, making them 18 over. However, worth checking with the school.

I gave up trying to predict what kind of questions panels and admission authorities will ask long ago. However, they should ask questions to clarify anything they don't understand and test the strength of your case.

Thank you I have emailed the school directly with those questions so I will reply once I know. Thank you ill try prepare as well as I can. Can I ask why it means its better for me if the net capacity range for the school is 1320 - 1467? Have I got room to bring up a point here regarding this?

The net capacity is a guide, calculated from the physical size of the school's accommodation, of the number of children it can educate. Given they have set their net capacity right at the bottom of the range, that suggests that they do have the physical capacity if necessary to cope with more pupils.

Would it be worth brining this up at the 1st stage of the appeal? How should I approach/word it? I did notice that 1320 and 1467 is quite a difference!

Do you think I have a strong case? I really have bent over backwards to try get this evidence in on time. I'm so rubbish at wording stuff myself I have no idea how to present all this to the panel 😥

Youi have a better case than many parents. A lot of appellants don't understand the appeals process at all, so talk about things that aren't relevant to the appeal panel (child care and logistical issues, for example).

My personal view is that it sounds like you've got a decent case and the fact the school has set its capacity right at the bottom of the range helps (something you should definitely bring up at the first stage of the appeal). If the first stage is being held jointly with all other appellants, I would make it a question - something like, "I notice that your calculated capacity is 1320-1467 and you've set your net capacity right at the bottom of that range, so you are still over 120 below your calculated maximum capacity. Why have you set your net capacity so low?"

@prh47bridge just reflecting on your last point. Considering the relatively low success rate of appeals (i have heard 20%) do you think that is driven down by people arguing on points that just will never win? whereas those arguing with good points actually succeed more often?

There is certainly an element of that, but I'm not involved in enough appeals to really say what proportion of appellants put forwards hopeless cases.