Permanent exclusion from yr 6, will it affect secondary place?

[Thingsthatgo]

A child I know has just been excluded from her primary school for the rest of year six. She has a long record of problematic and disruptive behaviour. She is on the pathway for ADHD and/or ASD diagnosis, but nothing officially diagnosed yet.
This week she threatened a teacher and a TA with a sharp and dangerous object.
I expect no one really knows the answer to this, but is it possible/likely that her secondary school will say she cannot attend due to this behaviour? Or will it not affect her place?

The LA need to place her in another primary school at this point, or another alternative unit. The secondary school is unlikely to get a say in whether she attends or not, certainly we get students who are PEXed from other local Secondaries mid-year.

I did work at a school in special measures once - that school was allowed to not take students who had been PEXed.

I don't know the answer to this but he will almost certainly go to a PRU for the rest of year 6, and I imagine they'll know if you ask. Does she have an EHCP? If so ask for an emergency review.

Thank you for your thoughts. The secondary school she is going to is a good, over subscribed state school.
Maybe she'll get a fresh start there.
I'll find out about reviewing the echp.

There are only limited grounds under which an offer of a secondary school place can be withdrawn. The child being excluded from their current school is not one of the grounds.

I'd be ensuring her diagnosis is pushed fast. She'll end up in the exact same position at high school otherwise, within the first year.

Poor kid. I hope she gets the support she clearly needs in the right setting.

If she has an ehcp it's not as 'easy' as a PEX for a child without. The local authority team need to be notified and there will need to be an official process around placement appropriateness.

It's a horrible situation. She could have hurt someone badly, so I understand why they don't want her back at primary. The sendco, who has been brilliant, is leaving at Easter.
I'm not directly involved in this child's care, but her mum will likely come to me for help, so I am trying to gather information.

The national autistic society has some info on school exclusions on their website, they also have an education rights helpline which offers good advice

Has she got an EHCP? The most important thing now is she get assessments, diagnosis in place and an up to date EHCP outlining her needs and the support she needs to stop this happening again (which it likely will in a MS environment - speaking from experience)

The secondary school would need to agree to meeting her needs on her EHCP.

If she doesn't have a diagnosis of anything yet she's unlikely to have an EHCP and disability protections only kick in when a school knows about the disability, presumably through diagnosis reports shared with them. I'd be advising her mum to look at speeding up the assessment process if possible, because if she goes to secondary school with the same behaviours but no diagnosis or EHCP she will be at risk of being permanently excluded from there too.

Ehcps should be based on need not on diagnosis so in that situation I’d personally concentrate on sorting out the ehcp and schooling as a priority. I know in practise it’s not always that easy but the fact she has been perm ex and is on the asd pathway is more than enough legal evidence for an ehcp assessment. Back when we were first having school issues I was told my child wouldn’t get an ehcp without diagnosis so we strugggled and waited then applied as soon as we had a diagnosis, then guess what we were turned down as it was a new diagnosis and they wanted to see if things magically improved now he had diagnosis, obviously we overturned at tribunal but this all lengthens the process, so I’d get the ball rolling now if she doesn’t have ehcp

@Morph22010 absolutely, I've known children to get an EHCP without any diagnosis, although it is much harder (in an already hard process). It's much less common, though, which is why I said it was unlikely she already had one.

Another thing to consider is that disability protection doesn't kick in unless you have a diagnosed disability.

My autistic son (diagnosed in Y3) was given several suspensions in Y7 to the verge of permanent exclusion, until I reminded the school about the disability discrimination act and their duty to make reasonable adjustments, so I have had to familiarise myself with this area. This was before he received his EHCP, which took ages and is in fact an ongoing shitfest of the LA's making.

I'd look at speeding up all processes, but a diagnosis can be helpful in it's own right as it will also open up other avenues of possible support for the girl (who is clearly struggling) that she wouldn't be able to access without one - even if she has an EHCP.

Thank you all for your advice. I know the school they have chosen has a reasonably good reputation for SEN provision.

What other areas of support will it open up? I know it can vary area by area but my son was diagnosed in 2017 and we were discharged on diagnosis with a bunch of leaflets most of which were out of date. My main help has come from parents groups which can all be accessed before diagnosis anyway. Son is now in a specialist autism school however it is now called communication and interaction rather than autism and will accept kids without s diagnosis who are on pathway. We’ve previously been turned away from cahms and re referal to paediatrician as they said issues relate to previously diagnosed autism. None of my experience is uncommon, in fact I’ve probably got further than a lot of people with getting him into the school hes at. I’m not saying they shouldn’t go for diagnosis but I think it’s misleading to pretend a diagnosis opens up support when the reality is it opens up f all.

Another thing to consider is that disability protection doesn't kick in unless you have a diagnosed disability.

You don’t need a diagnosis to be considered disabled under the Equality Act. Equality Act guidance states ”It is not necessary for the cause of the impairment to be established”.

Support in EHCPs is based on needs, not diagnosis.

I'm sorry to hear about your experiences @Morph22010, but it clearly varies by area.

Where we are the specialist schools we are considering will not accept a child without a diagnosis of autism and my son, who is now under Camhs is being looked after by their neuro developmental team, because of his diagnosis.

His EHCP is still not fit for purpose, two years down the line, so all support and reasonable adjustments have been because of his diagnosis.

And had it not been for his diagnosis, he would have been permanently excluded in Y7 and probably have ended up in a PRU.

I hope your boy is getting the help he needs now, it's so unfair that it all has to be such a fight and not even consistent!

That may have been their (probably illegal) choice but isnt a legal requirement

@FloatingBean you need to provide evidence of the impairment, though, through reports or diagnosis - you can't just self-id as disabled. That refers to say, liver damage caused by alcohol addiction - you don't need to establish the cause of the liver damage, but you do need to prove there is damage...

i think it’s actually the other way round, it’s not the school being allowed not to take students, it’s that the la are not supposed to name a school on an ehcp that is in special measures

You cannot go to a PRU with an ehcp. You can gain one whilst you are there if needs are apparent and then you will be moved to a school that can fit your needs/ special Ed. When a place comes up... which can take a long time.

You absolutely can go to a pupil referral unit without an EHCP!

I didn’t say you could self ID as disabled. You said a diagnosis was required, it isn’t. Evidence of impairment doesn’t have to be a diagnosis. Impairments arising from ASD/ADHD exist prior to diagnosis.

You can attend a PRU with an EHCP. LAs can also name an inadequate rated school in an EHCP, SENDIST are sometimes reluctant to name inadequate schools, especially if independent, at appeal but it is still possible to get one named.