Permanent exclusion from yr 6, will it affect secondary place?

[Thingsthatgo]

A child I know has just been excluded from her primary school for the rest of year six. She has a long record of problematic and disruptive behaviour. She is on the pathway for ADHD and/or ASD diagnosis, but nothing officially diagnosed yet.
This week she threatened a teacher and a TA with a sharp and dangerous object.
I expect no one really knows the answer to this, but is it possible/likely that her secondary school will say she cannot attend due to this behaviour? Or will it not affect her place?

Sorry! Misread your post @Stomacharmeleon 🤦‍♀️ My son did not have an EHCP at that point.

They dont say the student had an EHCP
They say they had been permanently excluded. A child with an EHCP shouldn't have been permanently excluded.

Children with EHCPs can be permanently excluded.

I was commenting on the comment about inaqequate schools not having to take children with ehcps rather than this specific case.

And children with ehcps are excluded all the time.

To permanently exclude a pupil with an EHCP takes a lengthy process and is one of the things Ofsted consider- and so schools do not tend to do it without specialist advice. The LA will often re-empt by placing the pupil elsewhere.

Some LAs advise to do it as it can accelerate an admission to specialist (which shows how messed up the system is)

The LA need to put in day 6 provision, this could be alterative provision or a PRU. If she has an EHCP really LAs should try to avoid a PRU but it does happen. Schools should do everything they can to avoid PEX for children with EHCPs but it does happen.

Then...

Primary until end of Year 6.

If she has an EHCP an early review should be called (school should have done this alongside the PEX process and invited the LA SEN team) and parent preference of primary school should be consulted for a place until July. It's worth a try to get her a full time offer...

If she doesn't have an EHCP then the LA still need to find somewhere suitable, this could in theory be the PRU until secondary.

Secondary in Year 7.
Regardless of whether she has an EHCP or not the place at secondary should be in place now, as offer day was 1st March. Agree with PP that this should not be withdrawn.

Might be worth contacting SENDIASS at the LA for legal advice

My view may be abit skewed as I tend to move in circles with other Sen parents but every child I know who has been perm excluded either had an ehcp or has Sen but has been turned down for an ehcp.

Be careful with SENDIASS, some are good but too many repeat the LA’s unlawful policies. IPSEA and SOSSEN are better.

Thank you all. This is so useful. It is astounding how much knowledge you need to navigate the SEN system.

A permanent exclusion can sometimes be the ONLY way to access specialist provision. It shouldn't be but it is. We excluded a child ( final straw was when he tried to throttle a member of staff) after two years of fighting for specialist provision, we applied for and achieved an EHCP- after having to go to mediation- involved educational psychologists, clinical psychologists, behaviour mentors, therapeutic placement, pretty much everything we could throw in. The local authority agreed he needed specialist provision, parents were desperate for it but " nothing was available" This went on for two years. A week after permanent exclusion, the child was in a private specialist provision.

This is why parents should just appeal. Actively partaking in mediation is often a waste of time, LAs often use it as a delaying tactic. Parents should just get the certificate and submit to SENDIST.

Thst's dreadful. She is obviously a threat to the safety of others. I don't think she would be automatically allowed to take up a place at the new school. Would she not go to a specialist school.

I take it you know absolutely nothing about Sen and how hard it is to get places in specialist schools

@FloatingBean it's my job and in my county you cannot attend a PRU with an ehcp.
You can gain one whilst your there.
And we have several students awaiting special Ed placements.

That may be your LA’s local ‘policy’ but legally a child with an EHCP can attend a PRU.

That's a bit different to "should not", though, isn't it- because by saying should not, you're implying it's never possible/legal.

Sometimes there are students with an ECHP who nonetheless meet the threshold for exclusion. Sometimes consideration needs to be given, but there are circumstances (e.g. if they have sexually assualted another pupil) where exclusion is really the only possibility.

The secondary school cannot withdraw the place, as others have said. However, if the same behaviour is shown in secondary, they will exclude too. Most secondaries I know actually move towards exclusion quicker than primaries seem to- e.g. serious violence towards other students is usually a perm exclusion in secondary, whereas some primaries seem not to permanently exclude for this.

It's also worth bearing in mind at secondary age, other parents may get the police involved if dangerous behaviour is shown.

Therefore, I think the key is ensuring there is a successful transition to secondary, and considering whether mainstream is definitely the most appropriate option.

If she does not already have an ECHP, I would seek one.

If she does have an ECHP, as someone else said, ask for an urgent review.

Talk to the secondary about what has happened- show willingness to work with the school and they may be able to put support in place e.g. writing a safety plan. It may be that, for example, she is better off currently not doing some aspects of DT if that helps keep everyone safe in school?

Is there any way you can expedite diagnosis? Medication can be life changing for some children with ADHD. Sometimes initially seeking an ADHD diagnosis only can speed up waiting times? Or is there any possibility at all to go private?

It looks like the primary school may have not followed the correct procedures in excluding the child. I think the mum is going to appeal the decision.
I am not convinced it's the right thing to do... the school has made it clear that they don't want her there.

So even though she's threatened 2 people with harm with a 'sharp and dangerous object' her mum still thinks they should be made to have her in the class? Were other children present when she did this?

I've read and re read but it's not clear if she has an ehcp? (Or I've missed it?).

Because what happens next will depend on this.

La have a responsibility to provide an alternative education. It's very important that the mum reads up on the law and all correspondence should ask the La what it's doing to meets its legal duty. Don't ask if they are going to - ask what they are doing and remind them of their deadlines. The reality is it'll take longer than legal deadlines but they take even longer than they need if they think you don't know!

If she has an ehcp it's needs an emergency review. The secondary school she's down ti attend should already be named and it needs reviewing to see if they can still meet need.

If she doesn't have one I'd get the mum onto applying. Again you need to read up on and know the law but there's such a risk it'll happen again if the placement in primary failed.

A PRU or ARP could be the best thing for her for the last term to support her to manage a school environment and transition.

@itsgettingweird yes, she does have an ehcp. The girl's mum is not altogether stable, and struggles to focus on getting the help her daughter needs. Sometimes she seems to be trying, but she is distracted by a new baby and a new partner. I am taking notes and will advise her, so thank you very much for all the help.
I really think that the school is not the best place for her. There were no other children present at the time. She basically smashed a glass and picked up a sharp bit. She held it to her own wrist and then threatened the adults with it.

She is lucky to have you as a friend and to help her with this.