Bucks 11+

[insomniac1]

Hi everyone

I just wanted to get some opinions on the TSTT bucks 11+. I have a June born son who is quite immature for his age. He is in year 3 at a very selective and academic independent through school and the feedback we get is that academically he's doing ok (pretty average) but he is quite lazy, not very competitive, very disorganised. He is excellent at reading and comprehension when it's a multiple choice type thing but is a slow writer. He's average at maths. He likes things like VR and NVR.

We are considering moving to Amersham purely to get him into dr challoners. We like his current school but financially are starting to wonder whether we want to commit to senior school fees.

I know that no one can answer this but what are your experiences with the 11+? Is it really as hard as everyone says? For an averagely academic child (although his strong points are multiple choice type questions/verbal reasoning etc as opposed to creative writing) if we tutor him from the middle of year 4 does he have a chance of passing? Or does he have to be super super smart to pass?

I'm asking as if we do go down this route it involves moving house!!

Thank you so much.

You could try getting him assessed to see how well he does on mock tests? This will help give you an idea. Although, he is still quite young, so you might need to wait until year 5 for the mocks. I think if a dc is bright it is possible. They do not need to be super super bright.

If he's "average" at a very selective and academic school he's likely to be Bucks 11+ material I would have thought.

However, if you're not sure, and you don't want to pay private school fees, wouldn't you be better off moving to a non-grammar area?

Thanks for your response. We are quite limited in where we can move to as we need to be close to elderly parents. We love where we currently are but nervous about fees going up significantly. Amersham/little Chalfont could work as an area but if he doesn't pass the 11+ I'm not sure which other good schools are around there?

Bucks pass the top 30% so it's not super selective like some areas. Anyone can have a bad day so you need to be happy with the alternatives. Amersham School is reasonably well thought of these days. For Dr Challoners you need to be in catchment 18 months before taking the test I think (check).
You could try the eleven plus forum.

I'm local and have had two DS go through the Bucks 11+ and now at Dr Challoners.

Any 11+ process is difficult and regardless of tutoring etc your DC has to want to put in the effort. Both my DC found it stressful (as did I). They had minimal tutoring (DC1 only revision courses, DC2 weekly group sessions in y5) in comparison with some DC in Bucks who are v heavily tutored.

That said I'm glad that they have the opportunity to go to an excellent school (and I too would have struggled with senior school fees) and feel that it was worth it.

However if they had failed then our alternative would have been private as personally I wasn't keen on the upper school options although Amersham School is quite well regarded.

As a PP has mentioned if you want Challoners then you need to be living in catchment by I think it is 1 April of y5 and not still own another property within 20 miles (but check the rules because they change and we've lived here for years so it didn't affect us. This year Challoners took up to 6miles within catchment (check the map carefully - it's a weird shaped catchment) but many years it's less than that.

One of the benefits of the Bucks 11+ over some of the other 11+ areas is that it doesn't matter what mark you get as long as it's a pass, it doesn't affect your chance of getting a place if you've got 121 or 151.

Feel free to PM me.

I wouldn’t move specifically to try and get into Challoners as it puts a huge amount of pressure on the child to actually pass. Amersham School is a great secondary modern so a good backup though but would you be genuinely happy if you moved and that’s the school he went to?

Look at other reasons for moving too. Better housing, access to countryside, proximity to relatives etc.

My DD sat it with no formal tutoring and passed with flying colours. She was familiar with the question types and good exam technique with me working with her at home, but I didn’t want her to be tutored to high heaven just to pass and then struggle once there. There are numerous children in Bucks grammar schools who need to continue to be tutored just to keep up. The schools teach at a fast pace to an able student body. They are not typically places for an average student. If he did pass then how would he feel constantly being towards the bottom of the class?

Sorry, putting a negative spin on things, but I think you’d be chancing a lot to move just for a grammar place.

@OP I think you need to think beyond the 11+ and ask yourself whether your son is likely to thrive in such a school. I know DCGS very well and what you have said about your DS suggests that the fit would not be good for that type of grammar school. Intensive tutoring is not the answer. It can get DC in the door but a lot who have been prepped in this way struggle when they are there and often end up having to be tutored right through. It is a great school for the right DC but I believe the fit has to be good for a happy experience and for the best academic and social outcomes.

Also very familiar with the schools mentioned here, both OP's preferred option and her fallback. Amersham School is indeed a good school these days and a perfectly reasonable backup for those living in the area already, but I don't think anyone moves to Amersham in order to attend it. @insomniac1 my advice would be to wait a little longer to see whether your DS is going to be a good candidate for the 11+ (Y3 is a bit early), then decide. There are some very good comprehensives in Herts, for example, which might be a better bet.

Thank you everyone! Which are the good secondaries in herts?

So to clarify we are currently renting a house as we relocated from abroad last year and my son is at merchant Taylor prep. We are looking to buy a house now and that's why we are thinking really carefully about where to buy.

Do we buy close to where we are renting (we have our eye on one we like) and hope he gets through to merchant Taylor senior or do we use the opportunity to move to Chorleywood/little Chalfont and save on fees.

Agree that he's a little young to judge - still only 7! If we weren't wanting to buy a house then we would make a decision next year.

I know I've made him sound not v academic. Maybe I'm not doing him justice. He is smart - has a lot of general knowledge and has a reading age of year 6. Maybe once he matures he will become more diligent and work conscious and do homework and push himself without me having to really have a go at him 🙈🙈. He currently struggles with writing and is quite slow at it.

I understand the point about having to maybe tutor him throughout secondary but I have no problem doing this for an hour a week as opposed to spending 30k a year on fees!!!

Just to add my son is not sporty - enjoys drama, music etc but is also not exceptional at playing an instrument or anything like that.

So confused.

Be careful on your areas - Chorleywood is Herts and not in catchment for Dr Challoner’s.

Hi @insomniac1,

He is definitely very young. I have a july born DS who at y3 was not even thinking about 11+ (it was also lockdown time). He has passed 11+ now with flying colors (both private and grammar offers). I only started any prep in y5. I would maybe start in summer of y4 with 10 min tests or something. At y3 I think it's all about reading a lot and discussing the books to see his understanding. MT is a great school btw and quite different to a grammar setting. Suggest you go on open days to get a feel for school.

Thank you. Yes sorry re Chorleywood I was thinking maybe St Clement Danes. Or move to bucks and try for challoners.

@redferrari what was your son like in y3? Did he sound similar to mine? Mine is a bit of a daydreamer. V loving and kind - is thirsty to learn science and history. Less interested in then writing things down!

Yes MTS is very good but my concern is a) he won't get a spot - they tend to get rid of around 15/20% a year from the prep I think and my son is def in the bottom half of the class. B) the fees are really worrying me too. I keep reading about fees going up so much and whilst we probably could afford it - it would impact our lives. My husband currently has a v stressful job and ideally I would like him to be able to move to something less stressful but that comes with a big pay cut.

@insomniac1 your additional information actually makes it easier as you can hedge your bets. If you moved to Amersham or Little Chalfont, making sure you are in the DCGS catchment area, MTS would still be an option if your DS got a place in the senior school. Lots of boys get the train to MTS from these stations – it's an easy journey from them to Moor Park, then about a 20-minute walk to the school.

@insomniac1 - at y3 my we didn't focus on writing but he was an early reader (reading age 16+ at 10). He has a natural inclination to reading all sorts of text which probably helped.

He loved history and science and books on world war etc. It was lockdown time so we let him pick books or topics and just let him read.
He was in a prep school which goes up-to 11+ but not as academic as MT. A lot can change from y3 to y5. Definitely visit schools and decide. My perspective has changed a lot from open days.

I agree that a lot can change between Y3 and Y5. Also your DS has just had the disconnect of moving from abroad and it could be that he still has to get into his academic stride. If you have to make a decision to move within the next couple of years, I agree that buying in Amersham or Little Chalfont could cover your bases for DCGS and MT. Berkhamsted (private) is a good option too and is feasible from either location. However, with those locations you would need to be comfortable with the Amersham School as the fallback state option. It is a secondary modern, i.e. the top 25% have been creamed off by the grammars as is the case with all Bucks non-grammars. However it has performed extremely well in recent years and I know lots of DC who have gone from there to competitive courses in high ranking Unis.

Hi OP - I have two that took the Bucks 11+ - one passed , one didn’t . Failing the 11+ can do a lot of damage to a child , especially after the effort of tutoring . It takes significant effort on behalf of the child doing the extra work to be tutored . My lad that failed was borderline in CATs tests but not interested in working hard . His scores fluctuated widely. My son that passed - it’s been obvious from very early on (4/5 ) how bright he was and he has always had the right attitude to work . He passed with a very decent score but his Grammar School experience is still challenging . It’s great to have Grammar School as an option but do not rely on it - if you are going to move check out the state alternative to Grammar too before you chose a house. Ask your private school for the CATs test results .. imagine he will have done some , this will give you an idea as to whether he is Grammar material .

Move to Chorleywood and live near St Clement Danes. You can avoid the 11 plus completely, and you're still near Amersham to visit parents.

You also have the option of sticking with MTs if you want. You would be on the tube line to Moor Park.

If you need cheaper, then Rickmansworth or top of Croxley for Rickmansworth School. Again, you have the option of MTs and it is a good school.

Thank you everyone. I really appreciate you taking the time to respond!

Re St Clement Danes - I'm probably going to be blasted for saying this but I may as well be completely honest. When I look at the results - they are decent but not great. Do you think a child would perform similarly in both SCD and DCGS? What are the main differences? I know league tables aren't the be all and end all but it's the only thing I can go on at the moment as the schools can't give us a tour until much later.

Living around MTS as an area is the most preferable to us - so if we are likely to keep him in MTS we would prefer to stay around there.

I'm an 11+ tutor and I think the Bucks test is one of the easier ones. If he's clever and broadly where he should be at school then he won't need a tutor from Year 4. Start in Year 5 - he'll be fine. I've tutored children who were way behind expected levels and got them up to scratch and passing in a year. 😊

@insomniac1 remember that St Clement Danes is taking in a much broader ability group as they are non-selective whilst DCGS is starting off with the top 25% so you can't really compare the two. If you want my honest opinion I would say that DCGS is a great option for the naturally academically very able. My DS loved the school and sailed through. However he had scored in the 160s in his eleven plus with only a few sessions of tutoring for familiarisation. DC who had scraped in after extensive tutoring often found it tough and parents I know have said that they wish they had sent their boys elsewhere where they ranked higher in the cohort and had smaller classes etc. The pace can be quite fast. It is too early to say whether the school is a good fit for your DS but be careful not to get hung up on the school and then try to make your DS fit the school. I would look at it the other way round but not for a couple of years.

You cannot compare the results of a comprehensive school to that of a grammar. Challoners is selecting the very brightest. Their results are going to be better. Please look beyond league tables.

Clement Danes is a very good school. You aren't comparing like with like if you are comparing it to a Bucks grammar school because it isn't selective (apart, I believe, from a small number of music places). If you want a more accurate picture you could look at Progress 8 scores.

Amersham School has benefited in recent years from an excellent HT and a very strong SLT, and it is now oversubscribed. DD2 went there and she has a first-class STEM Masters from a university rated 2 in the UK (behind only Oxford) for her particular field, so it can be done. But she is very focused, disciplined and extremely hard-working.

A bright child will perform equally well at any of the schools I mentioned. The main difference is that Dr Cs is selective, and SCD is only part selective.

Mind you, I've seen all angles. Parents desperately tutoring to get children into the Watford Grammars, who then didn't do particularly well. Same with the private schools, including MTs. Children then coming out of the lower ranked state secondaries with straight a stars at A level, oxbridge places etc.

Reason I mention the Herts schools is that they mainly offer by distance, and so, if you are worried about how your ds will perform at 11 plus, then it is an alternative.

Thank you everyone. Really appreciate your thoughts. And I totally agree about making sure a school is the right fit for a child. Don't get me wrong - if I thought MT's was a great fit for mine I would keep him there but he's not v sporty and not sure if he will thrive in such a competitive environment. I think the overriding comments are that he's too young to really make any judgements. It's just annoying as we are ready to buy a house and so would be really useful to know which area we should go for 😂

@insomniac1
The fairly big issue you face is which primary school in Amersham and Little Chalfont should you move. Very few have spaces.