Bucks 11+

[insomniac1]

Hi everyone

I just wanted to get some opinions on the TSTT bucks 11+. I have a June born son who is quite immature for his age. He is in year 3 at a very selective and academic independent through school and the feedback we get is that academically he's doing ok (pretty average) but he is quite lazy, not very competitive, very disorganised. He is excellent at reading and comprehension when it's a multiple choice type thing but is a slow writer. He's average at maths. He likes things like VR and NVR.

We are considering moving to Amersham purely to get him into dr challoners. We like his current school but financially are starting to wonder whether we want to commit to senior school fees.

I know that no one can answer this but what are your experiences with the 11+? Is it really as hard as everyone says? For an averagely academic child (although his strong points are multiple choice type questions/verbal reasoning etc as opposed to creative writing) if we tutor him from the middle of year 4 does he have a chance of passing? Or does he have to be super super smart to pass?

I'm asking as if we do go down this route it involves moving house!!

Thank you so much.

Some of my message got lost! People do move to be in catchment for The Misbourne and John.Colet at Gt Missenden and Wendover. Best back up schools. They 100% move for Waddesdon School! That’s catchment for Aylesbury grammars.

The 11+ in most cases is not an indicator of how well a child will do in secondary school. My neighbour’s son didn’t pass snd went to Amersham school and achieved all 9s in his GCSESs. He’s predicted all As in his A levels.

My son did pass. He got a high score too… because the the non verbal reasoning is second nature to him. However, it’s not a true indication of suitability for grammar school.

My son also went to a prep school. Small classes, teaching assistants making the teacher:pupil ratio about 1:6.

However, DCGS has big classes. Lots of kids. Lots of very bright kids. Lots of average and also a lot who really struggle. Tutored to within an inch of their life to get in. My son is average I would say.

At prep he wasn’t because he was a big fish in a small pond. At DCGS He’s Oxbridge but he’s also not going to “embarrass” the school. I’d not believe all you read snd hear about the school.

At GCSE the boys don’t all get straight 8s and 9s. Some don’t score enough points to get back into 6th form. My son did… just. He’s in Yr12. He stayed at the school purely to be with his friends.

The A level options are very limited. All optiions point to Oxbridge. Few in reality get in.

You could be describing my son “he's doing ok (pretty average) but he is quite lazy, not very competitive, very disorganised. He is excellent at reading and comprehension when it's a multiple choice type thing but is a slow writer.” He’s would prefer not to be like this, but it’s his default setting.

The behaviour at the school will surprise many too. I’m still blown away by some of the things I hear, rarely from my son? But via other parents, certainly not the school. Reputation to protect! Amersham School, according to what I learn from friends is more honest and so some might consider DCGS to have a better behaviour profile. The teachers at DCGS are no better than at AS and in fact, at AS the teachers are teachers where as st DCGS, they more impart information. The boys either get it or they don’t.

Bullying is alive and kicking, quite literally. The loo blocks are not accessible at breaks. One set has been completed ripped out by students. Other are fully occupied by students vaping.

Drugsvin school is a big issue. I think mostly because the school has not operated a one strike and your out policy for being caught with possession. A yr11 this year was out on his third! I believe 2 x Yr9s were also expelled this year for possession in school. Rumour has it, ex prep school boys.

There has also been a more serious and tragic case recently that I will not say more on.

My closing point is, based on the overview you have given of your son, I wouldn’t recommend DCGS. Early in yr7 I realised we’d made a mistake, but AS is over subscribed so he was rather stuck there.

The pandemic didn’t help his chaotic approach to work. It’s not his fault. It’s his executive functioning and how he’s wired. It’s the primary reason why grammar didn’t suit him. He’s grade 9 on content, no doubt about it. The teachers were often baffled by his end of year exam results. They didn’t add up.

Where the teachers couldn’t/couldn’t be bothered yo tie it up, I did. He didn’t answer the questions. Somewhere between reading the question, computing bit snd writing the we answers, a sort of Chinese whispers would in his happen in his brain. I’m not a teacher or a neurologist, but I wasn’t going to let him fall through the cracks so I worked hard with him and with the help of coloured highlighters - which you can’t use in public exams- we were able to crack the code. There is a high chance that he has some neurodiversity, but for the past year the school has not has a SENDCO so that puts paid to any chance of a diagnosis.

Had he gone to Amersham School I think he would have reached full potential and still enjoy learning. Learning at DCGS is not all dynamic. Some teachers are great snd clearly want to share their subjects and Love teaching. Others seem to have no interest in their subject or teaching.

Overall, DCGS has been an underwhelming experience. He can tick all the boxes he needs to do to go to uni, but is he inspired as a result of school? No. I’ve had to invest an awful lot of energy putting “magic” into some of the subjects. His GCSE English literature teacher could kill the most thrilling book and as most GCSEs texts aren’t, she’s put him off reading for life.

A lot of the way you describe your son 'ie dreamy' is traits of inattentive ADHD. People mistakenly think ADHD is boys running around like crazy - but thats hyperactive body ADHD....inattentive ADHD is hyperactive mind ADHD. Its worth googling it.
I have twins who both passed their BUCKS and BERKS 11 plus without a lot of tutoring and they also got 120 in both their maths and english yr 6 sat tests so relatively bright - but neither of them were prepared for what its like to be at a grammar school where suddenly they are in classes with super bright kids or kids whose parents are pushing them to be superbright. Its terribly damaging for their confidence. Also not all grammars are equal and unfortunately my daughter choose a grammar which was effectively an exam sweat shop like you hear about - it traumatised her and we needed to pull her out and put her in private. But she completely lost confidence in her academic ability and four years later still has not gotten that back.
I get why you want your son to go to a grammar school - the promise of a school like a private school but free is appealing to all parents. The prestige if going to a grammar etc. But be very mindful when it comes to the time to make a decision that he might not be suited to going to a grammar and if you have tutored him a lot and he passes because of this - its hard to then turn down the place.
Your thinking of you'll solve this problem if he's not academic enough with an hour's tuition a week if he needs it in high school is not correct. High school is not like primary where the teachers teach both maths and english - you would need a tutor who is subject specific so ie a maths tutor, an english tutor, a science tutor etc. To be fair he can see these bi monthly so you can balance things but its not as easy as just getting 'a' tutor.

You could be speaking my mind.

I agree with inattentive ADHD being worth looking into. It was my immediate thought. I have an inattentive ADHD diagnosis. Whilst I did ok in school and uni and have a solid career, grammar school would have destroyed me. Fortunately I didn’t pass my 11+. My son is yr12 at a Bucks grammar and it’s all about results snd it’s own PR. Pastoral care doesn’t exist. The school hadn’t had a SENDCo for nearly a year, which to me speaks volumes. As does the complete whitewashing of any drug issues in the school. One death and a not having to leave the area doesn’t seem to warrant concern. Concern or acknowledgment might expose the issues to ofstead or whoever headteachers care about.

I am considering moving into Bucks from Hampshire for my DD who is only 3 months old! It's a total minefield. I signed up to a lot of the 11+ forums online and came across a truly wonderful soul

www.facebook.com/vicky.collins.927 from total tutoring in High Wycombe. She took an hour of her own time to have a chat on her experiences of schools but also the component parts that make up successful candidates for grammar schools.

Dropping a note for others who are in a similar boat

How can someone tell if a three month old baby is going to be suited to a grammar school? This level of exploration is quite pointless at this stage. Quite apart from the child's development, eleven years down the line the schools could have changed beyond recognition. It is pretty obvious to a parent whether a child will be suited to a grammar school once they are about 8 or 9. I really would wait eight years and then decide whether it is worth moving counties for.

Is your name Vicky by any chance?

If he's average , you could maybe get him through the 11+ with tutoring (?). But would he then struggle at Grammar School ?

There are additional benefits including being close to my family once again. The sole purpose isn't for grammar schools though having the option is useful. Totally agree very premature to explore the idea of grammar school. I appreciate it sounds crazy ... I'm just someone who likes to be armed with knowledge.

Reason for moving to the area includes accessing one of the local independent prep schools also.

I basically did this, and regretted it. We moved to Bucks when DD was 2 for the grammar system.

What I hadn't fully appreciated is how much of an "eggs in one basket" issue it is as the grammar system means that the other schools are disproportionately full of less academic children. So if your child doesn't make the cut, it's not like you can send them to a decent comprehensive with a top stream.

As it happened, DD comfortably passed (with tutoring). But we have our next child to put through the process soon and it's not pleasant.

Given my time again I'd probably move somewhere like Tring which has access to the Aylesbury grammars (currently - catchment is never guaranteed out of Bucks) but has a decent comp to fall back on.

@elevenduck It’s not disproportionate. It’s the proportions that get selected and those that don’t. These schools are not super selective. Looking at numbers on toll give you a steer.

Tring dc do go into Aylesbury which leaves Tring school a bit short. Anyone moving to Bucks should head for Waddesdon in North Bucks.

@Tizerby its nature it is indeed disproportionate in Year 7 because the top 30% has been creamed off. So the comps are not fully comprehensive because the top 30% is missing. That said, there are bright DC who end up in the non-grammar schools who just had a bad day/ near miss too. Also DC develop at different rates and a DC may flourish academically a bit later so a couple of years later it may not be so stark. Similarly in the grammar schools there are (? overtutored) DC who make the cut but perform disappointingly once they are there.

@KittysCorner Why do you call them “comps”? How can they be? There have never been true comps in Bucks except for MK. That’s now a separate LA. I’ve lived here for decades and remember the Council refusing to give up the grammars. It’s clearly not backed up by data to think the secondary (moderns) can be comprehensive. There are no true comps in Bucks because it’s impossible. They will take “all abilities” but via parental preference and that’s not very common.

Its not 30% all over Bucks either! That’s why Waddesdon is so successful. North Bucks isn’t the same as the South! I always suggest people move to Waddesdon if at all possible. There are other secondaries with 30% plus high achievers. Quite a few secondaries here do a very good job and better than many comps. Yes, definitely over tutored in the grammars.

Locally in South Bucks the non-grammars tend to be referred to as comps rather than secondary moderns although indeed that's what they are when their intake is skewed by the grammar intake.

Why move up to Waddesdon if you have bright kids that are comfortably in the top 30% and suited to grammar? Not everyone is over-tutored in the grammars and just because they are not super-selective doesn't mean they don't have that calibre of DC in them. Mine had no tutoring and each scored >160 in the 11+.

I've never heard anyone call them comps in Buckinghamshire.

@KittysCorner I was referring to people who are unsure about whether DC will get to a grammar. That village gives cheaper housing and one of the best secondaries in Bucks. There’s a few others not far behind and that people appeal to get into.

Not sure why anyone in South Bucks refers to a non grammar as a comp as the definition of a comp is not met.

You can also get into Waddesdon if you're a practising Christian.

Or, as a friend did when her DD unexpectedly didn't qualify for grammar, make a sizeable donation to a vicar who will falsify a statement saying you're a regular church attendee.

Ah, religion.

Nor have I and I've had DCs at both a grammar school and a secondary modern in the county, in addition to living here for most of my life.

Okay we all know exactly what secondary moderns are but maybe some are just a bit too polite to reference them as that, particularly when our DC are in grammars. It is a euphemism but who cares. Maybe upper school or non-selective secondary is a better description but everyone knows the score. It's just like you never say someone 'failed' the 11+ in Bucks but rather 'didn't get the right score'. The school gate politics around the 11+, particularly in Year 6, in Bucks are something else.

DD and all her friends just called it 'school' 😀

It's more the parents who worry about labels, I think. And fwiw my DD who went to one has a higher academic qualification than DS or any of his friends from grammar school.

I agree with you @thing47that the DC themselves are not really bothered who goes where. Many of the parents are a different matter though.

Good for your DD. That's what I was saying about DC developing at different rates at different ages. Also some just miss it through nerves. It is actually a horrible system.

Oh god, I could bore for England on the subject of the peaks and troughs in educational achievement - it's a well-established phenomenon (I used to work in educational research). Only around 2% of DCs get top grades throughout school and university, the huge majority vary. There are a myriad reasons for this but I'm probably straying a little too far from the original subject of the post to go into details here.

@toprump Most people are honest about going to church to get into Waddesdon. Most decide it’s for them quite early. If you don’t find religion, the catchment is small. It’s still hugely sought after though and there’s the Aylesbury grammars if dc pssses.

South Bucks isn’t the same as around here. The LA talks about dc not being selected, mere mortals call it what it is. Failure to be selected! Luckily the vast majority of dc do get on with it. The parents are the problems.

I know two separate incidents (personally, not hearsay) of parents, who have literally paid the vicar or priest to say they went to church for two years when they didn't.

One was for a Catholic primary School, this one most recently was for Waddesdon school. It remains to be seen if the pupil gets in.

Both families involved are nominally religious, but the very fact they don't attend church flies in the face of the stipulated entry requirements. Ironically atheists who are too moral to do this suffer as they're not "religious" enough! To be clear, I don't massively have a problem with what the parents have done really; it's not hugely difference to me paying for tutoring, and we all do whatever we can for our children. I do however, have a moral issue with the so-called faith leaders taking cash, and a wider issue with the very idea of admission on the basis of faith.

So out of all the dc attending these schools you know of 2 cases. You can always spill the beans if you want to, Waddesdon does its own admissions.