Does the DfE guide schools on how many KS4 options they should have, and do I have grounds for appeal over this?

[weathergod]

My daughter is in year 9, and choosing her options for next year. Maths, English (x2) and Science (x3 or combined) are compulsory. Then she needs to choose 3 options (with a humanities subject and a language encouraged, but not compulsory). All the other schools in the area have 4 options, not 3. I'm cross about this and my questions are:

1.Is there a minimum number of KS4 subjects recommended by the Government for a broad and balanced curriculum?

1. Is this restriction to 3 options likely to reduce my daughter's options at A Level?

1. If I appealed for a place at another school on the grounds of wanting 4 options, would I have a good case?

I'm truely shocked at your post. I'm kind of thinking that I wish ds2's school did 1 less. The answer to your question is no, it doesn't affect anything. It doesn't affect your A'level choices, Uni applications, anything in life going forward. Seriously who gives a fxxk at 40, if you've got 8,9,10, or 11 GCSE's? Who cares. I wish they did the minimum, just to ease things. GCSE's, studying and revising for all those subjects, all the topics within each one, is enough. And if any very bright child wants to do an extra 1, further maths, or another language, or anything else, let them.

@ColouringPencils the majority of students take the combined science, somewhere around 69% I believe whereas only a quarter take single sciences. I assume the discrepancy in numbers comes from those who don't take a science GCSE.

The whole combined/triple debate is always around on MN every year when options start. State schools either just don't offer it or only offer it as an option subject to cover the extra content. I assume this is down to staffing levels. Most of Ds's A level class had only done combined science. To be honest Ds says A levels were relatively easy, he didn't struggle as he had chosen subjects he loved and was good at. The entry grade for a science at A level was just a 6. Ds got a 9,9 and the majority of his grades were 9s. If students come in on lower grades then of course it would be harder for them to achieve a higher A level grade.

They try to accelerate in year 9 then pick out those students who are the strongest candidates to put in for single sciences. This usually ends up being two class of 30 students one for each side of the year out of 320 pupils total. This is an outstanding academy with well above average progress 8.

How many subjects is she doing? What subject do you want her to do that she currently can't?

My daughter is doing the same at a reasonably well respected secondary in our area. If she only chose the combined science she would have got one more choice......but I think it sou d quite sensible they teach 3 science and combined science over the same length.

Eng lit,
Eng lang
Geography
Physics
Comp science
Chemistry
Art
Math
DT

(That's if she gets her first choices - we don't know yet).

No biology @Mumdiva99?

Btw, for all Year 9 parents, there is a very nice, very supportive, Year 9 thread running:

Year9

Many schools offer top set maths students an extra qualification like statistics or further maths if you really want an extra GCSE?
8 or 9 GCSEs is enough for top universities - many children with more speak a foreign language at home.
My dd did Combined Science then A-level biology which was fine.

That doesn’t sound many to me. Does your dd want to look at what other local schools offer and potentially move for the start of year 10? You have nothing to appeal about but if a neighbouring school has space there’s nothing to stop a pupil from changing schools. It’s a tough time to be doing it though, starting GCSEs and trying to fit in and form new friendships…..

in our school the core GCSEs are:
maths
english (x2) literature is taken in year 10
welsh (x2)
science (x3 for the top 2 sets, x2 for the others)

then their 3 choices of subjects

we’ve just found out that the top 2 maths sets will be taking their GCSE in November so that they can sit additional maths in the summer of year 11 as well.

so dc2 should get 12 GCSEs in total.

@RampantIvy
"11 is unusual these days since the GCSE reforms."

Hmm. Is 11 now the norm? Are some of the posters posting about only doing say 8 referring to previous years? It would seem that there is just so much variation here. I'm not happy that ds2 is doing so many.

Our school does PE and PSHE aswell, as compulsory:
2 x English, Maths, Combined or Triple Science, Geography or History, RE, Language, 2 Options. That is 10 or 11.

Hmm. Is 11 now the norm?

No, I don't think it is. I am a little out of touch as DD sat her GCSEs in 2016. Back then 10 or 11 was the norm, but I believe it is now 9 or 10.

@Oblomov23 Are you sure the PE and RE are GCSEs, and not just core subjects? RE is often a half if compulsory, PE is often just 1 lesson per week, not examined.

From following threads, the standard now seems to be 9 or 10. Some schools only offer 8, 11 wouldn't be a standard offer for most kids. It was more under the old system.

As I understand it RE (PHSCRE in our school) and PE are core subjects (3 hrs a fortnight) but the children don't take exams in.

Someone upthread posted the figures:

26.2% take 9 GCSEs
24.9% take 8 GCSEs
17.2% take 7 GCSEs
12.2% take 10 GCSEs so in fact lower than those who take 9, 8 or 7.

So over half take 8 or 9, around 1 in 8 take 10 and I suspect it tails off further on 11 or over.

Higher total numbers were common pre the latest syllabus change (to more content) and rule changes on league tables etc that only take into account exams taken in a single sitting.

On double vs triple science - everyone at DC’s comp did double, but on the other hand they had 5 option blocks, so eg two languages, 2 creative subjects, 2 humanities etc were very common combinations. On the transfer to A levels - DD moved to a school
where the vast majority took triple science, doing a science A level. Her teacher said ‘Don’t worry, there’s only 1 topic you won’t have done, and since we don’t do it in A level until Y13, we always have to re-teach it anyway’. She was in the top few of her new class and got an A*.

No. Computer science is one of the 3. (They have a choice of the 3 from 4).

@TeenDivided

No, I'm sure. They all do compulsory PE and PSHE, at his school. but this is not assessed and is NOT a GCSE, but is compulsory.

Catholic school so has to do RE, as a GCSE. And yes the PE is a GCSE. He had 2 choices and chose Business and PE as his choice GCSE's.

So yes he is definitely doing at least 10. It will become 11, if his grades are good enough and he gets chosen to do Triple science, rather than the standard combined science, which is just the 2 GCSE's.

Like I said, I'm not really happy. I think it's too much.
I'd prefer if it all children did less. I think 8 or 9 is enough, as a standard, basic. I think it should be standard that they all do a certain number. Across all schools. Then anyone who wants to do more GCSE's, if school can facilitate, can.

I agree that it should be standard across all state schools, it isn't fair that some children have more options than others based on the school they go to (as opposed to entering more or fewer exams based on their ability, which seems right). I don't agree they should all do 8 or 9 though. It's 10 or 11 at my school too and doesn't seem to be a problem. You generally can't do a subject for A level if you didn't study it at GCSE (obviously does not pertain for subjects that don't have GCSEs or which hardly any kids get access to), so it is important not to narrow down options too soon.

I really question the logic that it's better to do fewer subjects and excel than to do more and get one or two lower marks. Obviously that makes sense if you might actually fail or do badly, or if you are finding it very stressful, but it seems to even be the case for kids who might drop a mark or two.

People talk about this with A levels and university too - they are put off a 4th subject as it's better to get 3 top marks, which is what the university looks for. It seems so depressing to me and not what education should be about - it's all about the stats and not actual learning. If I got a B in A level maths, I would still have A level maths! I think the strive for a perfect slate is really holding us back. Also, it's really hard and expensive to educate yourself later on when you are out of formal education. I want our kids' options to be as broad as possible while they can be.

I disagree @ColouringPencils . Schools need to work to their demographics, and also to provide a semblance of choice for parents.

If they need extra time for maths & English to get pupils up to passes in those, then doing one less option is a good plan.

The amount of exams for 9 GCSEs is massive these days. For 11 it would be even more. Most schools would think the stress for that is far far too much for most pupils. I wouldn't want kids to be so overloaded by schoolwork they have no time for extra curriculars.

But how could having more options offer less choice? And I didn't say that all kids should be doing the same number of subjects - clearly some could benefit from more time on fewer subjects. But there should be the option to do as many as a child at a different state school.

I disagree with you as well @ColouringPencils. Getting 9 x 9 at GCSE is better than 11 but with lower grades.
It's the same with A level. AABB isn't as well regarded as AAA even because universities want 3 excellent grades, not 4 OK grades. I doubt that you will persuade universities otherwise.

Many schools restrict options, even while offering ‘more subjects’.

A school that does 5/6 basic subjects then has a free choice for 3 (so could do 2 languages and Art; History, Geography and PE; Economics, Computing and DT … or any other combo) has more true options than a school that does 10 GCSEs but 6 basic subjects (Maths, English, Sciences); a choice between History and Geography; compulsory RE; a choice between 2 languages and then only 1 free choice.

The latter actually closes off more avenues, rather than giving more genuine choice.

@RampantIvy maybe I wasn't clear. I do understand that is the way it's regarded by universities, government, league tables etc, I just think think it is bullshit. It seems to have created a system where schools want you to do fewer subjects so they can retain their standard of 'all 9s', even though you actually learn and know less overall. That's not what education is for.

Round here the private schools only ever did 9 GCSE's (with 10 for top set maths taking Further Maths) and it was the state schools who did 10/11.

But following the reformationof GCSE's no schools round here offer more than 9. I do agree that it should be standardised (with the scope for one wither way for specific individual reasons) but that the set number should be 9 GCSE's.

I don't disagree with you on that point TBH. Education establishments just game the system really.

DS is choosing options at the mo - his school does 11 minimum plus further maths for the higher maths sets. He has maths, 2 x English, 3 x science, RS and a MFL compulsory so only has 3 options from a dozen or so to choose from inc economics, geography, history, comp science, PE, DT x 2, art and music. They also all have to do normal games, PSHCE and PPE as non examined subjects. So in short only having 4 options seems fine to me.