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Secondary education

Connect with other parents whose children are starting secondary school on this forum.

Judd School or Tonbridge School?

36 replies

MakeMeDinner · 03/03/2023 17:28

My son has been offered a place at both of the above schools.

How much pastoral care is there in both, and what happens if the school suspect a student is struggling socially or academically, how much support do they offer?

Are there any pros and cons?

I realise one is a grammar and the other is independent so there is money involved, but if there are any parents who have experience with either I'd really like some input.

Thanks in advance.

OP posts:
LIZS · 03/03/2023 17:42

Is Tonbridge not only 13+ entry, so if you are at 11+ you need to find a prep for years 7 and 8 asap.

MakeMeDinner · 03/03/2023 18:05

He's already at a prep school so he will either move to Judd in September or keep going until end of year 8.

OP posts:
MakeMeDinner · 03/03/2023 22:07

Bump! Anyone?

OP posts:
Tryingtryingandtrying · 03/03/2023 22:13

Tonbridge school. You get what you pay for. Plus alumni

ZeldaB · 03/03/2023 22:36

Judd.

Tonbridge has a huge bullying problem, just look at some of the threads on here.

DeadbeatYoda · 03/03/2023 22:59

We used to buy drugs off Judd boys when we were at west Kent college.

Boobear1972 · 03/03/2023 23:26

We had the same decision to make four years ago. Chose Judd and haven’t regretted it for a minute. They are both fantastic schools. Judd has an energy to it that Tonbridge didn’t have for us. Better social mix. No Saturday school. And of course, no fees!

raisingthebarbell · 03/03/2023 23:28

Judd - what @Boobear1972 said with bells on.

MakeMeDinner · 04/03/2023 08:12

Thank you all, very helpful. Can I please ask what the pastoral care is like at Judd, and how much emphasis is put on extracurricular activities?

I would also appreciate any more comments on Tonbridge as well.

@ZeldaB
Do you know how the bullying incident was dealt? Thanks.

OP posts:
Boobear1972 · 04/03/2023 09:24

Pastoral care at Judd is good. Mrs Middleton and Mr McAfferty are very experienced and fair. Heads of House and Form Tutors add to the pastoral framework. Lots of Judd sports and music clubs plus fun, relaxed things like potions, board games and some engineering focussed - makerlab, soapbox, green power. Socials for parents - walks, Ball, cheese&wine, jazz evenings. School day is shorter than Tonbridge (8.40am to 3.40pm Mon to Fri). Most ckubs run at lunchtime. Some after school (to 4.45/5pm) notably Rockistry, Rugby and Running.

Schoolmum5 · 04/03/2023 18:23

Also very happy with Judd. Lots of sports, music and other opportunities. Pastoral care seems good. Agree with @Boobear1972

RS1001 · 17/03/2023 20:03

@MakeMeDinner
Sadly I can confirm much of what has been previously stated regarding Tonbridge School. We had a similar decision to make some years ago. These are not easy decisions. We also came from a prep school background. Its hard to know what the Judd pathway would have looked like. However I would share the following observations about Tonbridge:

  1. Cohort - their are (as others have stated) a significant minority of pupils who are not positive in terms of habits/behaviour and sense of entitlement. Often a function of parental attitudes/behaviour. Its probably not a cohort which you would want to be associated with/exposed to in many cases.
  2. Disciplinary action – the school has extremes on both sides. Lack a consistent application of sanctions for poor low/mid level behaviour. Then when more serious behaviour manifests itself they react often in an over the top way. Complete lack of consistency.
  3. Pastoral - this has been the biggest disappointment! Bullying is rampant and not placed in check unless extremely severe. Lots of bad events.
  4. Appearance: boys walk around looking very untidy and quite poorly put together – again nothing is ever said to them. In fact if you take pride in your appearance you are mocked.
On the bullying – not sure what event you refer to? So many its hard to say. If you are referring to the most serious (and public event) - the incident in Judde House? PM me....however a culture of bullying is endemic. Apparently an independent review is being conducted related to the incident – perhaps a whitewash? Of course this event highlighted the issues at the school very publicly – sadly its only a glimpse at the DNA of the school on many levels.

I certainly wouldn’t trust my DS with this group as a boarder.
All the best in your decisions.

WEEonline · 18/03/2023 03:51

Tonbridge for the competitive STEM prodigy and/or fencer, Judd is a great option for the generalist and mostly everyone else. Sevenoaks and WinColl will be better than any of these two though!

WombatChocolate · 18/03/2023 12:49

Both are good with strong academics. But they are very different.

Given Tonbridge is a traditional public school with higher end fees, it quite simply is posh in a way Judd will never be. The families who send their kids to Tonbridge are mostly extremely well-off. The majority at Judd will be from solid middle class families, but of course there’s a wider range.

In the end, I think you choose based on whether you want the high-end public school experience or not. If your child is at a Prep now, presumably you’re more familiar with private school approach and ethos. Have your kids ever attended state schools and are you aware of the funding issues? The funding issues will certainly make it a different experience…..and it depends how important that is to you.

Judd will and does deliver excellent academics and an extremely good extra-curricular and pastoral support, despite its poor funding. But if you’ve been at a Prep, will you be happy with the often scruffy facilities and larger classes? Does that matter to you? Or do you want the shiny facilities and approach where the school will bend over backwards to accommodate parents? Schools which charge high fees often accommodate parents and their wishes however unhelpful to the school community, because they are so keen to please their paying customers. Quite often, some of the troubles such school have, are partly a result of that. But the parents don’t see that or understand it, and often feel that having paid the large sums, they want to be have almost instant access and to have exactly what they want or they think their child needs, regardless of the impact on the wider school. You can consider if you want to be able to get a reply from the school within a few hours and have staff bend over backwards to deal with issues very very quickly. You won’t get that level of ‘service’ in the state school, because parents quite simply have far less importance. Therefore, if you think there are pastoral issues that need sorting out, unless it’s something pretty significant, you might have to wait longer….actually how serious issues are dealt with might be better, but minor issues which seem important to you, but the school judges as not significant might have to wait for longer, or you might feel that you’re not being heard or responded to. Parents from private schools are often surprised to no longer be treated as ‘the customer who is always right’ because it’s a different approach.

If you can afford Tonbridge without too much sacrifice and are seriously considering it, then it probably indicates that you do value what Tonbridge offers. It suggests it might suit you better than the state option. Many people apply to Tonbridge but who are desperately hoping for a state grammar place. They will push themselves and accept huge sacrifices if they don’t get the state place, but Tonbridge would never be their choice because of the financial side.

I’d say that if you want the luxury experience, Tonbridge is for you. If you want the great academics and extra curricular without the cost, it’s Judd. The decision really will come down to that and if you are able to comfortably pay and think the extras are worth it.

Personally, I couldn’t choose to pay the fees for the slightly better extra curriculars (shinier facilities without a doubt, probably more teams and more activities….but then can any boy take part in all 100+ activities anyway….the 50+ offered by Judd will be more than enough for any individual boy) and the more plush experience and what is no doubt, as easier, smoothed ride through school. Judd is a top top academic school. It’s not that the free option is the ghetto school…but I know some will still feel Tonbridge is worth the huge outlay for the things it offers. That’s fortunate for those on the WL for Judd who won’t be able to consider Tonbridge anyway.

No right answer, but I don’t think the final decision will really come down to pastoral care, but if you value the public school experience.

Gymginjim · 18/03/2023 15:44

Judd has some exceptionally clever boys but also has some boys taking fewer than 11 GCSEs. It’s nice that once you are in, you’re in. The boys finding things difficult academically or socially seem to get extra help from student support. Judd have a specialism in supporting boys with autism and the pastoral care sounds very good. Around half the boys come from independent schools and I think some parents find it a bit of a shock due to comparatively limited communication. Parental donations to the school are generous, so it doesn’t struggle for funding like some state schools. Extracurricular clubs are good.

There are some fantastic teachers, but also
a couple of departments each with a weak teacher, so a significant number of boys end up with tutors in one subject. We are pleased that there is less homework given than at most of the other local schools, probably because they cover a lot of ground in each lesson

My neighbours have been delighted with Tonbridge School, but we are happy with Judd.

WombatChocolate · 18/03/2023 16:39

OP is there a particular aspect you think your DS might struggle with?

I would say there will be support for academic and social issues at both schools.

A state grammar won’t have the staffing per head of the public school. Therefore, it should be possible for Tonbridge to give more individual time to a child who is struggling. Tonbridge will and do try to help a lot when these issues are raised.

It is different in state schools. There is certainly support, but quite simply you do have to get on with things yourself a bit more…..and that’s generally a positive, not a bad thing. There won’t be quite so much spoon-feeding and hand holding, but a bit more independence will be expected. That doesn’t mean there isn’t support for those who really need it, but the school won’t be able to give lots of extra individual time to every little instance of an academic struggle, such as a low test result.

Do you perceive that your child will struggle? Are you wanting somewhere that you think will give lots of individual attention and who will be open to hearing from you very regularly about your concerns? That is what some parents want, and what they pay to get. As mentioned before, if they go State after Independent, the less parent-focused approach can be quite surprising and disappointing…..but on reflection, most can see it’s just not possible…or even seen as beneficial. It depends what you want.

An earlier poster talked about Tonbridge having a number of students who are entitled and demonstrate lots of poor behaviours. One of the issues with privileged students, is that they can feel untouchable and as if they can do anything they want. Unfortunatley this is often due to parents fostering this atttiude and weighing-in to defend them and have any sanctions removed that the school try to use. In this culture if parent-pleasing, people can sometimes get away with too much. Some parents like this….they want to be able to control the school and determine what happens. For other parents this is disappointing, as the consequences of the parent-pleasing can be a less positive environment for the majority of well-behaved students.

So some of this is thinking about what suits you and the relationship you want to have with the school, as well as what you think your child needs. Tonbridge could be good if you want fairly heavy involvement and more regular updates and to know that little things you raise will be followed-up immediately.

Of course, going to Judd will be at 11 and going to Tonbridge will be at 13. Some people don’t think their boys especially are ready at 11 to move on and need to stay at Prep to mature a bit more. Judd is of course used to 11 year old boys and what they can and can’t manage. Many of them will be self-starters and a level of independence will be quickly expected….with support. Does that idea thrill you as an opportunity for your boy to grow up a bit more? For some parents, that growing independence and responsibility the boys need to take is a positive. For others, it creates fear as they are not quite ready to let their let their little boys go. So again, the question isn’t just about support, but about choices for 11 or 13 transition.

Lots to consider. Hope it all becomes clear to you quickly and you feel sure if your choice. It is a wonderful choice to have because both are great schools.

PartsofKentareok · 25/08/2023 06:46

Late to this so you’ve probably already decided but here is our experience of Judd - DS at Uni now left last yr. DS did well but I’d not give any credit to Judd for that.

Judd is great for the the top 10% there (who are already the top 5%) but fail the rest significantly. There is very little support and if you fall behind on anything then god help you.

See it year in year out since Mr Masters left, has definitely gone downhill. If you look at their website today the message they have about GCSE results and many students not being re admitted for sixth form sums up Mr Wood well.

Mrs Middleton is great but overworked. Pastorally, if it’s really significant they are good but anything less than that are hopeless.

Have you looked at Judd’s great rival, Skinners?

PartsofKentareok · 25/08/2023 06:50

This reply has been withdrawn

This message has been withdrawn at the poster's request

Hantsmum123 · 25/10/2023 14:45

Hi everyone. I am piggy-backing this thread as it seems to be that there are several mums with DS in the Judd. We are at the stage for filling in the CAF and I would be grateful for some expert advise. I know schools are much more than grades and rankings but its seems the Judd seemed to hover in the 14th to 18th best schools in the country until last year when it dropped to 71st. I have read some negativity regards management but just wondered whether as insiders you are aware of anything to be concerned about in the teaching standards, or if this was just a blip?

Thanks so much

Justbefore · 26/10/2023 13:06

I’ve known boys at both.

Definitely, definitely Judd. Judd is fantastic. Read the Ofsted report: it’s all true.

Tonbridge has had issues for many decades that mean there is no school in the country I’d less like my son at. if you are keen on private do Sevenoaks or Caterham or Whitgift or Brighton / Eastbourne. I can’t recommend Tonbridge.

https://www.kentonline.co.uk/tonbridge/news/amp/former-teacher-jailed-for-sex-crimes-292704/

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/secondary/4644936-tonbridge-school-inclusive

Former teacher jailed for sex crimes

A former councillor and "charismatic" teacher at the prestigious Tonbridge School has been sent to prison.

https://www.kentonline.co.uk/tonbridge/news/amp/former-teacher-jailed-for-sex-crimes-292704/

PartsofKentareok · 26/10/2023 14:05

Massive LOL at the Ofsted being accurate for Judd. Maybe it was when it was done over eight years ago. Definitely not now.

Riverlee · 26/10/2023 14:47

“The Judd School performs consistently highly above average in national examinations, with 90% of GCSE entries and 89% of A Level entries achieving A*-B grades in 2019.[85]

League tables published by the BBC based on 2008 A Level results rank Judd as the fourth best school in Kent.[86][87] In its 2022 league table of the best selective schools in the United Kingdom, The Sunday Times ranked The Judd School 18th.[88]

The vast majority of students at the school go on to attend prestigious universities,[89] and the school has consistently high Oxbridge offer rates.[90]”

From Wikipedia.

I’m another ex-Judd parent in the days of Mr Masters as a head. It a a really good school then, often being in the top five in rankings, although appears to have slipped down the rankings now

BBC - Wikipedia

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BBC

Riverlee · 26/10/2023 14:49

It’s interesting no one has mentioned Skinners? Years ago you applied for one or the other, and there was a real rivalry between the two schools. Does that no longer exist?

raisingthebarbell · 26/10/2023 16:18

Looking at gcse results for a super selective school is utterly pointless - these are the best of the best academically and of course will be able and expected to secure high grades. Better to look at progress 8 score showing academic progress from KS2 to KS4. Judd is above average for this but there are better non selective schools in the area.

I've only met satisfied (current) parents at both skinners and Judd but exams results for both just tell you about the calibre of the pupils not the school.

raisingthebarbell · 26/10/2023 16:20

Riverlee · 26/10/2023 14:49

It’s interesting no one has mentioned Skinners? Years ago you applied for one or the other, and there was a real rivalry between the two schools. Does that no longer exist?

Amongst the prep-school clan of TW it's certainly the case - take the 11+, pass and get TWGSB and stick with private but get Judd or Skinners' and take the state school place.