With Oxbridge taking less and less private school students, is it still worth it??

[SillySmart]

stats shows that the number of private educated students Oxbridge enrolled has dropped 1/3 in the past 5 years. Any thoughts?

UK universities do not particularly want large numbers of impecunious overseas students, they want wealthy ones who can help subsidise those who are UK educated and have got in on their merits. Universities in democratic countries take an interest in fairness within the borders of the country in which they operate, because they do not want to lose state support and funding. I think it’s disingenuous to claim you think fairness should extend to the entire world, when the entire world does not vote in the relevant democracy.

Thank you Titchy. Do you think the admissions system re overseas students education is fair?

Sorry the man is called Rob Henderson https://www.psychologytoday.com/gb/contributors/rob-henderson

He raises some interesting points although I do not agree with many of his views. However, it is good to get a perspective from a Yale and Cambridge graduate (Gates scholar).

He is on X and tweets regularly and publishes regularly too. Sort of relatable materials.

I guess it’s a bit like public schools, which don’t care if your father is a corrupt overseas oligarch, so long as you can pay.

I guess it’s a bit like public schools, which don’t care if your father is a corrupt overseas oligarch, so long as you can pay.

That’s not always the case. I know of a boy who was turned down by a well known public school because his Russian father was a corrupt oligarch.
However, should the sins of the father be visited upon their children?

“UK universities do not particularly want large numbers of impecunious overseas students, they want wealthy ones who can help subsidise those who are UK educated and have got in on their merits. Universities in democratic countries take an interest in fairness within the borders of the country in which they operate, because they do not want to lose state support and funding. I think it’s disingenuous to claim you think fairness should extend to the entire world, when the entire world does not vote in the relevant democracy.”

I disagree. We have a ton of successful first generation immigrants sending their DCs to UK private schools and paying huge amounts of taxes into the UK state system. So their offspring should be treated fairly. After all, they are big contributors to UK tax.
Overseas students may contribute X for 3 years in overseas fees when parents of home private school kids have typically contributed far in excess of that to HMRC in taxation and therefore, indirectly to the education budget too. So yes, it is entirely unfair.
Do I care personally, probably not. However, let’s call a spade a spade.
I do not think it matters that much that we are moving Oxbridge brand places around from one middle class wealthy part of society to another (privileged state school parents). But we should be honest about it.

“That’s not always the case. I know of a boy who was turned down by a well known public school because his Russian father was a corrupt oligarch.
However, should the sins of the father be visited upon their children?”

There is a barred list and anti money laundering regulations apply as well. No well known public school governor (usually connected and well established persons volunteering) wants to be tainted by properly dodgy persons.

Oh dear. They missed quite a few, didn’t they?

There is plenty of evidence that corrupt money finds its way into the UK very easily. Of course, some people are only deemed genuinely dodgy when it is politically expedient. At other times, they can own an awful lot of UK assets.

Oh dear. They missed quite a few, didn’t they?

Probably. Can you give some examples? One I can think of is Saif Gaddafi but he went to university in UK rather than school (as far as I know).

Also, there was a rumour that children of high ranking members of the Chinese Communist Party came to UK schools using pseudonyms but I have no idea if that’s true or not.

There is hard evidence that the Chinese Government plants students in UK universities to spy on their behalf and our own security services have warned us. However, apparently we need the overseas fees.

Evgeny Lebedev went to both to Holland Park Comprehensive and Mill Hill private school so yes, he slipped through the net.

So I think there definitely should be a box to tick for highest parental educational attainment.

There already is on the UCAS application form.

Because it’s known that students are more likely to progress to HE if their parents attended.

It’s not unfair - home students are competing against other home students, not against the overseas students. So letting in fewer wealthy overseas students just means poorer universities, not more wealthy home students getting places on courses.

“So I think there definitely should be a box to tick for highest parental educational attainment.

There already is on the UCAS application form.”

It isn’t very specific in the UCAS form at all, definitely not asking about elite parental university education and in any event, you can tick “prefer not to say”. And that is exactly where we are heading now with many youngsters - into “prefer not to say” territory.

Define “elite”.

I didn’t go to a Russell Group university because Russell Group (which is a massive marketing exercise) didn’t exist when I went.

And there are numerous good universities that aren’t part of the Russell Group - are they elite or non elite?

Are you also then saying that parents that went to what you personally deem a “non elite” university are less well qualified?

If I (for instance) have a medical degree from the University of Dundee, where do I sit on your elite hierarchy?

A medical degree is elite @SabrinaThwaite so your children are educationally upper class and advantaged.

But the University of Dundee is not one of your elite institutions, is it?

If I just said I had done an undergrad degree at Dundee I wouldn’t be ticking your “elite university” box would I?

Any medical degree pretty much worldwide requires very high grades and stringent entrance requirements.

Yes, but maybe it should be more specific? E.g. did your grandparents (as well as parents) go to uni.
Has anyone out of your parents or grandparents attended Oxbridge (or similar).

But you wanted applications to specify “elite” universities.

Does the University of Dundee meet your threshold for “elite”?

What about if I did land management at RAU? Or atmospheric science at Reading? Do those institutions meet your definition of “elite”?

You’ve already asked this and had an answer.

And I don't think it's the full story. Research has looked at parental influence on higher education attendance and it's been shown that the mother is the most important determining factor. But I don't think there has been investigations into the generation above and the influence that has. Or do you perhaps know of research on this?

...and I'm pretty sure that the type of uni attended (e.g. Oxbridge, Russell Group, poly etc) has not been investigated...