With Oxbridge taking less and less private school students, is it still worth it??

[SillySmart]

stats shows that the number of private educated students Oxbridge enrolled has dropped 1/3 in the past 5 years. Any thoughts?

I'm always saddened that Oxbridge has such a particular status, compared with the many other excellent UK universities. For me, it's Oxbridge that was questionable value, not independent schools. My experience (admittedly, sample size of 1), a few years back at Cambridge:

• world class academics, yes, but this did not translate to an aptitude or even an interest in lecturing. Some - many - were truly dire.
• the supervision system: equally hit and miss, some good but some post-grads in need of cash, with little interest or ability in teaching
• ridiculously short terms
• extra curricular no different than elsewhere
• nowadays (in my subject) better lectures available on YouTube

I had a lovely time, but the academic side was underwhelming. In contrast, I did a subsequent taught Masters course at Imperial where the quality of teaching was excellent.

Nowadays when interviewing for new joiners at work, Oxbridge not a factor.

And I truly believe that parents get more hung up about these things than the young people.

Young people of all educational backgrounds apply to Oxbridge with excellent potential in terms of talent but are unsuccessful because there aren't enough places for all of them.

That is the top and the bottom of it.

You only have to look at the Oxbridge threads on these boards to see that children of all backgrounds apply and that there isn't a particular 'type' of applicant that is successful. For most of these YP it's tough because it's the first experience of 'failure'. But often it's the parents who are the most disappointed and the ones who tend to be the most disappointed are the ones with the most expectation (tend to be the private school ones).

“So the real argument is whether we are losing the wealthiest, best connected and most powerful to universities overseas by trying to attract bright children from all backgrounds, not really whether we are losing the brightest.”

Thank you- and are we doing this? Probably yes. But is it being replaced quickly from other eg Asian countries?

So what is the effect on overall wealth of the nation? Can it be quantified?

I reckon alpha parent with gifted kid aspired trajectory is: Eton/Westminster/SPGS etc on notional scholarship/bursary etc and then top US uni. Oxford no longer even on the radar for many. You just need to look at the leavers’ destinations and the sudden increases to foreign unis even in grammars.

All U.K. unis are desperate for overseas fed paying students and don’t care there if someone went to an elite school abroad. So the whole system has become absurd and I am not surprised the alpha parent with options takes the out route. Makes more sense for them.

Does it even matter though?

No, it can’t be quantified, because it is mixed up with the fact that this country in general is losing its international appeal. This is not led by the universities, but by the leadership of the country as a whole. Regardless of Oxbridge admissions procedures, wealthy, powerful, well connected type A personalities might well think overseas is a better bet these days - few of this type of personality have any particular loyalty to place, just intense self-interest.

“As for taking 40 GCSEs - that is all very performative. Since so many academic private schools think GCSEs are a waste of time, I wonder if paying the fees to enter all those exams is time best spent?”

I agree it is performative to some extent but with truly gifted children the parent has to be child led and if she wants to do that, then hats off to her! Sounds absolutely amazing to me.

As a nation we really need to get ourselves out of an inverse snobbery towards aspiration and pushiness. It is the new world order. Ambition and excellence needs to be at the heart of the next few decades or we are truly screwed. We have for the longest time relied on imported talent across the board and if we lose that, I think it will be really bad.

@Intergalacticcatharsis I agree upper comment: Westminster is highly successful at getting its most able children into Oxford and Cambridge. I don't think W is a place with the collection of 150 IQ. Many other schools might not have that privilege.

There was a Pakistani girl in the press recently from Henrietta Barnet who had done something like 40 GCSEs and was working her way through multiple multiple A levels. I bet she is looking to the US for uni. She clearly has a very switched on mother too.

This one?

https://www.geo.tv/amp/506691-uk-based-pakistani-girl-sets-new-record-with-34-gcses

Article says she’s hoping to study medicine at Oxford.

It seems to me that it is sometimes seen as “pushiness,” not knowing your place, and distasteful if you are from a state school, and “giftedness” if you are from Westminster school. 🤣

As for ambition and pushiness being at the heart of the next few decades - I find this an odd desire. Putin and Trump are ambitious and pushy. Ambition and pushiness are only desirable if they have desirable ends for the many, not the few.

Westminster School and all the London superselective grammars are now full of middle class Asian kids (middle class in their parents’ country of origin) with pushy driven parents and the kids are really clever too. Most are academically gifted and driven. We have to be careful not to discriminate against this demographic.

@SabrinaThwaite - yes thanks, that is the girl I meant, but I read a different article. I think there have been many. She is clearly quite privileged with a stay at home highly educated mother and a barrister father and a grammar school background. I really hope she does stick with medicine and in the U.K. but I wouldn’t blame her if she couldn’t hack the NHS.

All U.K. unis are desperate for overseas fed paying students and don’t care there if someone went to an elite school abroad.

That’s so hypocritical of universities not to take overseas students’ schooling into account.
There have been plenty of articles on university admissions, contextual offers etc. and I wonder if admissions have ever been questioned on this unfair aspect.

Intergalacticcatharsis · Today 10:07

Westminster School and all the London superselective grammars are now full of middle class Asian kids (middle class in their parents’ country of origin) with pushy driven parents and the kids are really clever too. Most are academically gifted and driven. We have to be careful not to discriminate against this demographic.

Asian students brought a class action which they won, against some American universities on the grounds some ethnic minorities were offered places on lower grades whereas Asian students were expected to get higher grades.

@SabrinaThwaite

I think this causes a headache for Oxford. If the girl for what ever reason is not accepted then there would be a huge outcry that a privately educated girl with stratospheric IQ and A level results has been rejected. The press piece has cleverly ensured that a girl very likely to get into Oxford is now even more so.

I think we have to be careful of the narrative this sets as it seems to suggest a pile of A level A stars is the means to get into Oxbridge where Oxbridge themselves have been arguing that although extremely good grades are required there is no particular advantage is 'over doing' it by doing multiple A levels of GCSEs. As for IQ being a useful academic metric that is debatable.

Hopefully this young girl will find the time to do relevant work experience for medicine as well as concentrating on a plethora of A levels........

@mids2019 - that girl is state grammar educated, not at a private school.

Oxbridge and all Russell group unis should just be school blind except in real cases of deprivation/challenge. That would fix the problem quickly. It is what many employers are doing too as regards uni.

Asian parents with just 1 child and in the most taxed income bracket are overly represented in both state grammars and private schools. It is pretty awful to discriminate against their children. So that white middle class kids from the regions in comps get a chance.
The Labour Party is coming for some of these parents too with VAT on school fees. I think many will just take their IT and medical skills to other countries. That is the bit I am concerned about.

There are multiple ways to signal your educational, class and cultural background without actual name dropping. Recruitment methods are far from “blind.”

People who support the policy seem to be full of hate for private schools. Targeting schools are very wrong if the goal is to nurture potential, there are bursary students, students with special needs, students who parents work in the schools and have discount and convenience. Punishing private schools by putting VAT back, it doesnt make sense economically as less private school will be more burden for state schools, and they are not free for the government.

So far, Oxbridge has been ranking on top, we shall see if this policy does change it.

We most likely still choose private, only because we want selective and the only grammar school in the area is an academic hot house. We are not wealthier than some of our neighbors who send their kids to local comp, and will be paying the fee by income which will be alot of sacrifice. And indeed, like some of the posters here, maybe for now value the journey and think of the destination later.

Both UK schools (Langley Grammar and Henrietta Barnett) attended by that girl are state grammars.

Presumably she would be called to interview for medicine at Oxford given her stated exam / BMAT results, but would still need to pass that interview.

Whoops my mistake!

The point still stands she is a shop in for Oxford and Oxford would maybe come under pressure to justify rejection of it came up in the press.

Oxford wouldn’t dare reject her! Look at all the flack they got over Laura Spence years ago….

“Oxford wouldn’t dare reject her! Look at all the flack they got over Laura Spence years ago….”

@Charlemagne38 - but that is why I raised her profile in the first place. She is exactly the kind of Asian grammar/private school highly selective girl that may be overly compared to their cohort as opposed to their actual achievement on a national level - to the extent that the mother has clearly foreseen and gone to the press to make sure she and her kind will be given a place. Therefore, the logical conclusion to me is that it is an issue, in reality.

She wants to study medicine. Having 34 GCSEs has very little relevance to that. They will follow their usual admissions process, not equate 34 GCSEs with suitability to study a degree in medicine.

How many people want to be reassured that their doctor has the world record for number of GCSEs taken? It’s simply one indicator of her interests and personality, and not one that shouts, “medicine!” to the outside world. In other words, she may well be an ideal candidate for medicine, but there is no way of telling that from her GCSE tally.

Exactly @Walkaround - a candidate needs great GCSEs and predicted A Levels for Oxford Medicine. But without a strong BMAT and interviews they won't get in.

DD is a 2nd year Oxford medic.

I didn't know there could be 34 GCSEs to choose from 😅. Is she doing that to enter in the Guinness book of records
The girl is clearly clever so the mother is probably doing a disservice if she really wants to be a medical student.