Ability for grammar

[pluggee]

How do you know if you should even attempt trying for grammar places? DD is in yr 4, they are bright but a good all rounder as opposed to genius. We have some grammars locally.

What county are you in? The level of competition is stiffer in some places than others due to the system being slightly different from place to place. (I'm assuming you're talking state grammars at this point.) Bright all rounder sounds good, they certainly won't all be geniuses! Working at above average in English and Maths is a good marker. 11+ is sat at the start of yr 6 but will contain things from the yr 6 curriculum so they need to be ahead of the curve in that respect.

Depends where you live. Some areas you can just be on the top table, even middle at primary and you'll get in, others you need to be head and shoulders above everyone else at school.

Here grammar take the top 25% but in other areas it's top 5% or less. In reality children who aren't in the top maths and English sets at primary are unlikely to pass the 11+ in this area.

I'm in London which I know is very competitive. They are pretty strong in Maths, certainly not head & shoulders above although it's an excellent primary with a high % achieving above.

You can take mock exams during the summer of year 5 to see where your dc sits in the cohort. See the website elevenplusexams.co.uk. I think the exams are run by the PTA of Sutton grammar but I might be wrong.

thank you

How do you find out what % the grammars take in your area?
I'm in Gloucestershire, could head to Cheltenham or Gloucester.

BBC News - Grammar schools still failing to boost number of poorer pupils
www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-64714201

Saw this.

London you'll mean private ones then. Very different from our local state where the top 15% prob get in but virtually all are tutored heavily for a year min. So it's very closely linked to parental income.

Not private

But would say the vast majority are tutored in some form, I also know some people who send dc to prep in order to get a grammar place.

Tiffin? Or the Sutton grammars?
For the London grammars you need to be pretty bright across the board. I would start tutoring with a tutor who has experience of getting children in the school you are applying and see what they say.

Yes @3WildOnes Tiffin in particular due to location. thank you will look at this.

@Reluctantadult a couple of years ago I tried to work out what % go to grammar in my area (Birmingham). It wasn't straightforward, though perhaps I went about it the wrong way!

I found out how many school places there were for Y7 in state schools in Birmingham, and how many of those were for state grammars, and that gave an indication that about 10% of those places were in grammar schools. This was more than I'd expected!

However, it's much more complicated than that, as those figures don't factor in private schools, or indeed the many children living outside Birmingham that take up places at Birmingham grammars (and those living within Birmingham that travel to school in a neighbouring LA area).

I always think of the Gloucestershire situation as being fairly similar to Birmingham: several grammars but not a fully grammar area. However, Birmingham's King Edwards grammars now have catchment areas, which will have changed the intake slightly. I do know that some children travel long distances to the Gloucestershire grammars.

For Tiffin (albeit the girls school) being Greater Depth across the board in Y5 and being one of the small group who got extensions to the extension tasks was enough to get a place. That was with about a year of weekly prep work (we did it at home, but equally you could use a tutor).

We just looked into this for DC year 5 and hired a tutor experienced in London entrance exams to do an assessment.
Although DC is "working at greater depth" in every subject and sails through all the 11+ maths books, verbal reasoning flashcards, etc. (finds them fun and easy, I can't keep up!), the tutor said it would take a huge amount of work to get him to the level required for English.
This is despite DC being at "greater depth" at (outstanding) state primary reading avidly as well as our reading at bedtime nightly. DC simply doesn't enjoy comprehension and creative writing.
Although the nightly practice and hours at weekends might get DC through, it wouldn't be a way to spend the last year of childhood proper.

Am very worried though, because London state schools don't seem at all suitable for a shy child.

@LetItGoToRuin thank you! I appreciate that.
Yes I've heard a lot of people travel from Swindon in particular.
I think I've decided now that unless my children are ahead of the expected level in several areas it's probably not worth doing the 11+.
I just wish the secondary modern here was better.

Just to say, you don't have to be a 'genius' to go to a state Grammar School!

@Ceilingplaits that is a concern of mine, they do enjoy creative writing & seem quite good at comprehension. Writing next great though.

Don't fear, I went to excellent secondary schools in London albeit catholic & there are some good non faith ones.

True. Most people I met at Oxford and Cambridge even weren't dazzlingly bright. A lot of it comes down to having conditions at home that are conducive to study, prior schooling/tutoring, family culture, and so on.
I just want a society where all schools are at a standard and safe for all children, not to be stressed out worrying about how my child is going to cope in a giant, rowdy, underfunded school.

We don't get much choice of secondary school unfortunately, quite a lottery where I live. I get the impression they're a lot better than when I was at school, but underfunded.

A friend's daughter who's incredibly bright got into a south London grammar despite being middling at maths, as she was brilliant at English, so perhaps there's some flexibility depending on the child's strengths?
Best idea is to find an experienced tutor who can give you an idea, I think.

Depends on whether they are good at exams as well.
We knew from very early DD would do well at 11+ and that DS probably wouldn’t. They are both bright but in different ways and while you can prep them it’s one exam on one day so even very bright kids can do badly while those with good exam technique can do well. They also have to want to do it.
In DDs cohort the dc who were offered places were above average but really wanted to do well and practiced the exams a lot. Some very bright kids who weren’t as driven or who hadn’t practiced didn’t do as well

I dont think being greater depth across the board and on extension tasks is enough. About 25% of my childs cohort were greater depth. Only a few of them got into Tiffin. My son received 120, 120 & 118 in his sats and wouldn't have got an offer from Tiffin.

Pates in Cheltenham is super selective (top 5%) and takes children from ridiculous distances. The Gloucester and Stroud grammars are more "normal". In fact quite a few children from Cheltenham go there because they can't get into Pates.