Ability for grammar

[pluggee]

How do you know if you should even attempt trying for grammar places? DD is in yr 4, they are bright but a good all rounder as opposed to genius. We have some grammars locally.

You could have a look here -

www.elevenplusexams.co.uk/forum/11plus/index.php

My daughters went to a Kent grammar. At the start of year 5, parents were told if their children were suited to a grammar school and if the school would be supportive if their child was borderline. This was a state primary. It was very helpful but I don’t know if primaries still do this.

@3WildOnes I wasn’t saying it’s definitely enough, but that its a good sign that its worth giving it a go. It was enough for both my DC.

OP I’d suggest doing the Sutton mocks, as that gives you a chance to see where your son sits in the cohort that’s thinking of sitting the grammar exams, and also gives him a chance to experience a big exam hall and exam conditions etc, which is helpful if he does do the grammar exams. I’d also be wary of tutors who say it a DC needs a lot of work to have a chance, some of them will be right but some of them will be trying to sell you hours of tutoring. It’s also worth checking what the exam consists of - some exams don’t have any creative writing, for instance, so it wouldn’t matter if that’s a weak spot.

I hate the whole system but here is my twopenneth.

DS bright & able - did 11 +, sailed through, went to a superselective grammar and now at uni.

DD August birthday very laid back. Failed 11 + on one paper by one mark (English). Got her in on appeal as she had heart set on local grammar. Did really well in GCSEs last year - and got 2 x 7’s for English, having failed it at 11+. No tutor or extra work.

So bright kids it’s easy. Ones closer to the border (in our county it’s top 23% roughly) it’s a tough call. It’s worked well for us.

The thing is though @TimingIsABitch , is this still the way things are? I guess this was 7 years ago?

@3peassuit there was a thread on this a week or so ago and most people said their primaries don't do this. I know the school my kids are at doesn't.

In what way @Reluctantadult ? I have friends with much younger DC and can’t see anything much has changed in our county.

The big thing is late developers - especially summer borns! This never changes. One can see from FOI the massive proportion of autumn borns that take the 11+. (The age standardisation they use to make it “fair” to DC born 11 months later than peers taking same test only takes into account those that sit it - the % of autumn borns vs summer borns sitting it there’s a huge discrepancy).

@TimingIsABitch I was wondering whether things might have changed since yours did the 11+ and got into grammars. Genuine question. You might not know the answer either.

What I've been told is that the 11+ test is based on work that the kids will cover in year 6. The test takes place in mid-Sept. So the kids have to be running in advance of what they're taught in school. Most people here say that's why they use a tutor for a year before. To teach the kids this stuff in time for the test.

This goes a bit against what you said about it being pretty easy for a bright kid to pass. So I wondered whether something had changed in the last 6 or 8 years since yours did the 11+.

Where I am less than 10% go to grammar - which works out at 2-3 per class. You could ask DC's teacher, DS's always dodged the question saying they don't teach to that style of exam but generally if consistently greater depth in Maths and English it's worth considering. I suspect they also can't say if your child is in the top 2-3 in the class.

Cheltenham primaries don't help kids with grammar application/suitability unless a parent specifically asks and even then it would depend on the teacher. The ones I have experience of don't talk about it at all with the kids.
Girls have a better chance in Gloucestershire of getting into grammar as there is a whole extra school, I think any bright motivated girl would get into grammar but this is not so true for boys.
My kids went to a middle class state primary, all the girls who sat the 11 plus (maybe 10 out of 45) got in, and probably around half of the boys.
State schools in Cheltenham are not all that bad, so I would not be too worried about that. I know people who have thrived at every single one of them.

And I should add to this that every single child I know who got in was tutored. May not be universally true but true in my experience.

Ah crossed wires. A bright kid still needs tutoring be it paid or by parent with books as yes loads not covered in time.

The point I made was that my Y6 DD failed English by 1 point at 11+ but then got 2 x 7 s at GCSE for English with no extra work or tutoring at her secondary school (grammar as we appealed).

So this goes to the point that is often made that those that only just scrape in/fail aren’t meant for grammar schools and will need loads of tutoring at secondary to pass GCSEs!! Just not true.

You can do really well at a Grammar School even if you only just or don’t quite (and have a successful appeal), make the pass mark. The pass mark doesn’t indicate that anyone below it wouldn’t thrive at a Grammar. Many would, but there has to be a cut off point, I guess.

Thanks @EarthlyNightshade
We're in a town 20 mins drive outside of Cheltenham. There is one secondary modern in the town that's not got a great reputation right now locally, plus Ofsted visit last month said requires improvement, and it's rumoured to be being turned into an academy. The main other option is catching the grammar bus that circles the Cheltenham / Gloucester grammars. It's a bit of a journey. None of it feels ideal.

That is tricky, alright.
Academy not necessarily a bad thing, but if locals keep avoiding the school and aiming for grammar, it's a bit of a slippery slope.
Hope it works out for you.

Definitely head over to the ElevenPlus website and look at the areas part of the forum. There’s a whole section dedicated to Gloustershire 11+. People discuss the individual schools, preparation and difficulty and making judgements about putting kids in for it.

I’d agree, that working at Greater Depth and being in top groups is the starting point. But then Ialso agree that some preparation or familiarisation is needed. Can be a tutor or a parent buying some books.

For somewhere like Pates, most will have been prepped fairly extensively. The level required for the other Grammars is not so high. And as you do 1 test, with the results being shared with as many of the schools as you choose, if travelling is an option, you have a better chance.

Another thing some people do is get a tutor to do an assessment and say if they are very hopeful, there’s a chance ir it’s really not worth doing. It can be useful if you have no idea.

Honestly, having had 3 dcs go to grammar school, I'd rather they'd gone to a decent non-selective. Unfortunately, in grammar school areas, decent non/selectives tend not to exist.