Single-sex education for boys - How much does it matter?

[1sttodie]

Inspired by a recent, thought-provoking, thread about single sex vs co-ed education for girls. I grew up in a country where all state education is co-ed, so have limited understanding about single-sex education. But here am I, with a Year 6 son who will likely find out on March 1st that he will be going to an all-boys secondary school. He's applied for our 3 local grammars (all single sex), and in terms of comps, his top choice is also single-sex and we are well in the catchment for it. His reasons for preferring these schools have nothing to do with them being single-sex: it's a complete non-factor for him at this stage.

To those of you who have experience with boys at single-sex secondary schools, please could you share how it's impacted how they view and interact with women? Surely, these days, schools take measures to help prevent hypermasculine or misogynistic behaviours? I appreciate that parenting also has a huge role to play here, so tips welcome!

Unfortunately, my son does not have a sister and there aren't any girls around his age in our social circle. I was thinking of enrolling him for some kind of 'mixed' activity outside of school but it would be challenging as he already has a busy extra-curricular schedule (unfortunately all with boys only). Oh, dear!

Thank you

Also the teacher said he’d never seen his boys behave so badly….

Tbh it very deeply troubles me that as a society we are happy to send our girls to all girls schools and yet all boys schools are demonised. One can't exist without the other. In many local authorities there isn't a choice about it.

Lots of post and news about research on SS being great for girls. I can’t find any recent ones. I am assuming anything older than 6 years will be bias to generational and cultural bias of the period. Anyone has any links? Of course, data should have a large sample size not just 3 schools in a city.

Wow, I am blown away by all the contributions on this thread. Thank you for taking the time to share your experiences. A lot of food for thought! I don't think we'll get closer to a consensus on single-sex vs co-ed, but it seems clear that boys need girls in their social circles (and vice versa). Reading some of the posts here, I now realise that this will likely happen naturally for my son, through friends, youth clubs, etc. But if not, I will encourage hobbies involving girls.

Once I know what secondary school my son will go to (9 days to go!), I will research what activities they organise with girls' schools - and how successful they are! I didn't know about these joint initiatives, so am grateful that's been highlighted here. I think it is beneficial for boys to interact with girls in a learning environment as well.

Look out for my update in 7 years :)

It doesn’t sound like there’s anything you can do to avoid it, and plenty of v nice men come out of single sex schools.

So I’d talk to him about your reservations in an age appropriate way, and try and find some Co-Ed out of school / holiday activities he can do.

I went to an all boys super-selective, which went co-ed for sixth form during my time there. There was absolutely no misogyny, if anything we were a bit overly polite and shy around girls, and adored girls whenever we had a chance to meet some. Camarederie was strong, life was good. Friendships suffered a lot when girls entered, and it resulted in smaller competing cliques. I have seen brotherly friendships fall apart in the wake of girls entering, so I for one am not a big fan of co-ed during teenage years

Single sex wouldn't be my cup of tea and my ds actively chose a mixed secondary (at the time he was going into Yr 7 we lived in an area with both single sex and mixed state secondaries.) the fear of a toxic masculine culture would put me off but that said, I'm sure plenty of perfectly well balanced men emerge from single sex schools!

It sounds like you have the right approach OP in recognising the benefits of friendships with girls and boys so as long as he has those opportunities then he should be fine

I doubt teenage boys' propensity for child-on-child sexual abuse disappears when you take the girls away. They just abuse other boys instead.

toxic masculinity... really? how rude and offensive. it doesn't seem like you have a lot of male friends, and you will certainly not make any. what if you were told your feminimity was toxic??

The idea that boys are all awful at boys schools is just ludicrous. Of course they are mostly great young people. Also the idea that girls are all bitchy at girls’ schools but turn into angels at co Ed is just as silly. The notion that boys are totally supportive of girls at co Ed is ludicrous too. Some are strutting peacocks and not averse to making dreadful comments about the girls they are in close proximity with. The fact is: a few Dc are unpleasant wherever they go to school.

If they don’t receive parental guidance, some Dc can be unpleasant. Conversely there can fantastic Dc in any type of school. Parents just have to ensure Dc are decent human beings.

Don’t think anyone is saying that that would be daft. So you think the school / peer group has no influence on behaviour of teens which is totally predicated on parenting? Not sure I agree tbh surely it’s a mixture of both? Plus surely the criteria is where your own particular child would fit in best. Some lads get on brilliantly with girls and would be a bad fit in an all male environment.

It's a bit disconcerting listening to some of the opinions here.

I think many children suffer through school and pinning it on the school being single sex is an easy excuse. The reality is that some children are cruel in any instance and every school will have examples of it. Whilst I agree children are influenced by both home and school environments, you have only some say about the school environment and far more say about the home environment.

It is horrendously reductive to assume that any child who goes to a boys school will always experience bullying and trauma, whereas in co-ed they'll somehow be supported by the presence of girls. My experience, and that of most of my peers, was one of an incredibly supportive boys school. This is coming from someone who almost refused to participate in sports or CCF at a school known for having very high calibre sport and military connections. Talking to those I know with children in boys school now most of the children couldn't care one way or another and many thoroughly enjoy their time in those schools. There are of course always a few who don't enjoy school and move, but I hear many stories from children not enjoying their co-ed education as well.

In the meantime, what kind of message does it give to a DS if you refuse to send them to a boys school for fear of toxic masculinity or sexual abuse? Are you not just saying that their gender by default are abusive?

I agree in every way that men should call out other men when they see abusive behaviour. But I would definitely draw the line at instilling a fear or aversion to their own sex.

@TheaBrandt Yes. I do think parents have more influence. You are making the assumption that decent Dc are followers. They don’t have ideas of their own about how to behave. They blindly latch on to the worst behaved. Children simply don’t do that. They are far more discerning. A minority love being in the wider circle of the alpha male type but many simply do not engage. Likewise girls are not always interested in mimicking the queen bee. I think you need to give Dc and parents more credit.

You can sometimes see Dc who really have no empathy with others. You see angry uneducated parents who are unpleasant. Don’t you think their Dc have more of a struggle to be a decent human being? I think they do. A kind, happy, loving and supportive background with boundaries works best. Do you think the Dc terrorizing old people on housing estates will be perfect citizens in a co Ed school? I have my doubts.

I didn't say that single sex boys' schools are all hotbeds of toxic masculinity.

But it you don't recognise that toxic masculinity is a massive issue in society, you're living under a rock. I'm not convinced single sex environments are the best way to promote positive relationships between the sexes.

I don't think anyone is denying that toxic masculinity is an issue. It's the subtext that this is a much larger issue in single sex schools as opposed to co-ed schools. One of the nice things about single sex schools is that it can actually reduce the idea of masculinity and femininity. By not having the other sex around suddenly subjects and matters that may have been "feminine" or "masculine" are neither, they're just subjects and you can do them because they're there. Not because some societal bias says your sex is predisposed towards it.

Both my DS's are in a coed school, and there are absolutely things they simply won't do because it's "for girls". The school does what they can to degender things, and we as parents try to encourage them to pursue interests anyway (both love dance for instance). But it's almost unavoidable as their peer groups immediately push each other into gendered roles. That's not a thing in single sex schools.

My son went to an independent all through school and it was mixed until aged 12, single sex for a few years then mixed 6th form. It worked very well for him as they still mixed socially with the girls but they studied separately. He said the split at 12 worked well as it stopped the showing off from the more em, exuberant children and there was more focus on actual work. His words. He mixes well with woman as do his friends.

This kind of generalising language is very disturbing. Just because I have met some horrible women, I am not going to start shouting from the top of my lungs that toxic femininity is an issue and if you don't recognise that you've been living under a rock. That would be unfair, rude, offensive and highly abusive - towards most women who are decent.

True Thea

I think different settings suit different kids. It's a really tough decision. If you can go round the school a child can sometimes tell where they feel is right for them.
All boy schools can work well for boys who like that environment.
It's very hard to know. I think sone boys really suit being around girls who they can create different kinds of friendships with in maybe a less macho environment? Again, these are generalizations.

I think single sex schools can really benefit girls who are academic, sone studies have supported that but I don't know the quality of those studies.
Good luck with the process as it's so tough.

Diamond model seems to be fairly rare though

DSs went to mixed primary, SS secondary, which had coed sixth form.
They and their friends turned out fine. You always get a few that are socially awkward or have misogynistic tendencies but the grammar school handled this well. My DSs were quite social so hung with girls at lunchtimes after school etc.

My 21 year old went to a boy’s grammar from 11-16 (switched to co ed comp for 6th form). He’s always had a lot of friends who are girls because he danced - a lot. No-one at school knew he danced because he would have got the shit ripped out of him.

He often says things about having learned to be tough/hide feelings because of going to a boy’s school. But he also seems to not see that as necessarily a bad thing. He definitely enjoyed co ed 6th form more and seemed to be a better fit with that school.

I thought it seemed like a tough school and tough environment which actually suited ds2 in many ways although he was right to move after GCSEs.. It would have been horrendous for ds3 - I don’t think he would have coped tbh. He was co-ed all through at a very mixed comp (different one to ds2’s 6th form) and happy there. So probably depends on the boy.

I also think the diamond model could be one of the best options overall.
However, like a previous poster, selecting the right school to fit the child, we ended up with DD in co-ed and DS has been in all-boys throughout. But the specific schools they were at contributed to them being good choices for each of them.

Tbh there is good reason why most of the Top schools for Boys in the country seem to be Single Sex to at least the age of 16. Academic, sporty and especially musically gifted boys tend to thrive in Single sex schools.