Single-sex education for boys - How much does it matter?

[1sttodie]

Inspired by a recent, thought-provoking, thread about single sex vs co-ed education for girls. I grew up in a country where all state education is co-ed, so have limited understanding about single-sex education. But here am I, with a Year 6 son who will likely find out on March 1st that he will be going to an all-boys secondary school. He's applied for our 3 local grammars (all single sex), and in terms of comps, his top choice is also single-sex and we are well in the catchment for it. His reasons for preferring these schools have nothing to do with them being single-sex: it's a complete non-factor for him at this stage.

To those of you who have experience with boys at single-sex secondary schools, please could you share how it's impacted how they view and interact with women? Surely, these days, schools take measures to help prevent hypermasculine or misogynistic behaviours? I appreciate that parenting also has a huge role to play here, so tips welcome!

Unfortunately, my son does not have a sister and there aren't any girls around his age in our social circle. I was thinking of enrolling him for some kind of 'mixed' activity outside of school but it would be challenging as he already has a busy extra-curricular schedule (unfortunately all with boys only). Oh, dear!

Thank you

I should caveat by saying that I’d send ds to the more academic school, regardless of it being single sex- ie the coed thing is a fairly minor preference vs other considerations.

Not in the UK- our catchment school is single sex. I was really dubious about it for DS - the headmaster was adamant that there was lots of research that single sex education was good for boys not just girls (apparently this is not public research!)
So far it seems good- academically its very good - it has a particular reputation for teaching boys English which I was sceptical about but now my son loves english.
it doesn't seem to have the ego/macho issues that i can see in the elite private schools- the boys seem less uniform in some way- even just to look at. That said DS is only year 8!

I don't disagree that some boys schools can be macho hotbeds of bullying and misogyny but so can many mixed schools or we wouldn't have Everyone's invited and similar. If mixed schools made boys respectful of women solely by virtue of being mixed, we would have solved misogyny and violence against women by now. There are so few all boys schools that the misogyny we see in society can't all be caused by the 362 all boys schools (this is both primary and secondary) out of the 32,000 schools across the country (numbers from TES). You can have all boys that are respectful and mixed schools that are hideous for girls - depends on the school.

I moved my sons from a mixed to a single sex setting when the sexist stereotyping became too much to counter at home. Boys "not allowed" in the home corner as that's only for girls. Boys constantly being told they would aspire to be footballers (teachers would use this as an example in maths for instance) and boys teased if they didn't like football and that was all they were "allowed" to play at break. Girls being praised for creativity, boys being praised for being "leaders" and never vice versa. DS1 teased for playing a "girly instrument" and indeed doing music at all. I don't have a girl but I suspect there was similar pressure on girls "always finding maths hard" and other sexist bullshit as I had that when I was at school. And this was coming both from the teachers but even more from the other kids. At their boys school, everything is available for boys - English, music, drama, dance, sport, whatever.

They also have a 50/50 balance of male and female teachers (mixed school was overwhelmingly female teachers and female head) and are respectful to all of them and I haven't noticed any disrespect or banter among my son or his friends - though I stay vigilant.

Also, not every school is going to be like my sons' first mixed school, just as not every school is going to be like the one @tryandcountsheep 's brother went to. That's why choice is good

My DB went to a single sex school but is the most caring loving husband to his DW and looks after my widowed DM as I live too far away. He didn't socialise with my friends as he went to boarding school and I travelled quite far each day to go to school so all my friends lived too far away

Both my boys go to a single sex grammar.

It's a great school and as well as getting a superb education they both enjoy school which is most unlike my experience of a mixed comp.

The school enforces very high standards of behaviour which is what is needed for teenage boys. It also offers lots of opportunities in areas outside the curriculum (theatre, music & sport).

There's a high proportion of male teachers which I think is very good for boys.

The 6th form is mixed which is a good thing (this will be put to the test shortly)

I wouldn't want my boys to go to any other school, if they were offered free enrolment at Eton I would genuinely say no.

I don't know what we'd have done if we had had boys, but we sent our girls to a single sex school and would definitely do that again.

If there are lots of boys schools in your area, there are also presumably lots of girls schools and I wouldn't be surprised if they had made arrangements for joint activities.

In my case, my children's school and the local boys school arranged a couple of optional social (out of school) activities for year 9s (eg bowling followed by pizza). The music departments also cooperated so they could put on choral concerts and musicals. In the sixth form there were some shared 'general studies' lessons.

I would ask whether the schools you are considering do anything similar.

@1sttodie
I am going to slightly expand this by saying school is not 24/7. How you and DH bring your son up is very very important. This school doesn’t override your parenting.

You find boys who are not very pleasant in co Ed schools too. The rugby team “gods” exist there too. The swagger and exaggerated boy behaviour takes it cue from on line blogs as much as school. Parents need to ensure boys are educated to avoid such sites. Plus the sex sites too.

So choose the school wisely. Ask other parents what they think. School culture can change very quickly so ignore anything from 20 years ago. Make sure your DS does mix with girls socially. Don’t go out of your way to force it but let him gradually sort out good friendships. He will. Most boys are pleasant and respect girls wherever they went to school because they have decent parents!

@TizerorFizz just wondering what you do for a job to have so much time to be on mumsnet mostly talking up private schools! Or are you a PR for ISC and get paid to be on here so much?

??. You clearly have time to read what I post! No: I worked for a LA! Many state schools are wonderful and both DDs attended them at primary phase. Happy now?

My two DSs went to all boys grammar. Eldest left last year and is now at uni, other one is still there. Both boys are respectful and certainly have had plenty of PHSE etc. on appropriate behaviour, consent, misogyny and feminism. They both mix with girls from their old junior school and from other schools through friends and social media, and have no issues socialising with the opposite sex at all. Of course you will get boys that are horrible or treat women badly but I suspect that's the families they grow up in, I don't think the schooling is the bad thing there - we only need to take a look at the astronomical rise in sexual assaults on girls in mixed sex schools to know that.

I went to an all boys school (outing myself as a Dad here). There was definitely some misogyny and objectification but the vast majority of us were more awkward and interested, more concerned with how to impress women than how to be "alpha" and dominate.

I think what I've heard from research into Girls only schools very much applies to boys only too. It provides breathing room where boys can learn without (or with less) judgement. Stereotypically "feminine" subjects are no longer taboo, so more boys explore the arts for instance.

I think the biggest issue I found was that, as the boys mostly interacted with "the boys" it becomes difficult to change your attitude and manner around women. I.e. you try to talk with women like they are one of "the boys" as well. But that's less about being banter and teasing, and more just treating them like you treat everyone in your life - without bias.

I agree strongly with what was said elsewhere though - school is not 24/7 and a lot of our behaviour was influenced by our home life and what we were exposed to. My behaviour was heavily influenced by my elder sister.

So now I have 2 DS who will likely both go to boys school, there is no DD to influence them. So I'm going to take the point made to my face by Laura Bates that as the DH in the family I need to step up and call them out if they start acting that way, and call out actions by others in front of them. I hope it's enough, but I will do more if need be. Unless there is a real problem at the school I don't think their influence is as important.

I've worked with lots of juniors - men and women. I can just tell which ones (of the young men) who have been educated in a single sex environment. We operate in a supportive, low key, knowledge sharing, female led team and they struggle to integrate...they are uncomfortable at first and you can just tell that it is a culture shock for them.

There has not been an "astronomical rise" in sexual assaults. There has been an astronomical rise in girls reporting and calling out sexual assaults, and in schools taking them seriously when they do. Sexual assaults have always happened - I remember getting felt up in the early eighties at my junior school and then (when I was at a girls seconday school) at the local youth club. The sad thing was that I was as flattered by that as I was whenever I was wolf whistled in the street. Attitudes have changed and we quite rightly no longer accept it, but not all men and boys realise it yet.

Understand the sentiment here of SS for girls, mixed for boys. The reality is, especially in the independent sector, there can be very little choice to really have the luxury of making a balanced decision.

Also, an anecdote I've heard, is that an important consideration in choosing SS, is not so much due to interaction with the opposite gender, but more in choosing an academic path that is free of any gender biases - for example one of the heads in a visit to an all girls school, said they believed it was easier to encourage more girls to get into pursuing STEM subjects as there was much less of a herd mentality in terms of pursuing what your close friends are choosing to do (e.g. generalising, but more boys choosing CS for example, more girls choosing history). My DD is in year 9, and DS in yr 5, so I've seen the dynamic more closely with respect to girls.

Also a mixed school isn't necessarily going to reduce misogynistic behaviour - I think it's more about actively looking to create the right culture and creating an environment of mutual respect.

I agree it's important for girls and boys to have healthy interactions, and for me I'd love to see more activities where they can interact as peers across a range of activities. The yearly school disco with the nearby boys/girls school doesn't really help make things any better.

2 recent examples come to mind - a maths competition between schools, where a boys school team (top 30 independent), were verbally bullying the girls - commenting on clothing, making fun of people for stammering on answers - sounded terrible.

And then an Entrepreneurship case competition where teams were mixed between school, and there was encouragement, debate and respect, across age groups.

How we see more of the latter and less of the former is crucial - I don't think the choice between SS vs mixed is the answer - I'd go more on fit and our perceived view of the culture... but the bigger thing is what we as parents, as schools etc. can do to foster positive behaviours based on respect.

Intermittent mixing doesn’t work. Dh went to a careers event at dds all girl state. Many girls interacted asked him questions good interactive session he came back really positive. This year someone had the bright idea to mix the day with the nearby boys school. Entire session dominated by a minority of boys. Not one girl uttered a word.

I chose a mixed comprehensive for my son, rather than an all-boys grammar, because he always got on so well with girls at junior school and I didn't want to deprive him of the opportunity to mix naturally. At secondary he was in a mixed friendship group with some very close platonic female friends (as well as a girlfriend from another mixed school). He then went to the grammar for sixth form, which was mixed. Again he had a mixed group of friends, whereas many of the boys who'd been there all.through found it difficult to interract with the sudden influx of girls.

I think more single sex schools should have mixed sixth forms. It benefits the younger students, not just the sixth formers.

It’s totally possible the 6th form boys just preferred their existing friends? They didn’t need any more. If you don’t see a person as like you, or liking what you like, you don’t make friends with them. As adults we are not mates with everyone. We choose people with similar interests. What does it matter at 16 anyway? Friendships should not be forced. It happens in the end.

Neither of my DDs would not have stood by and been sidelined by boys. They have been taught to speak up. So parental influence matters. Why would DH in question not interact with the girls if he thought they were timid? Don’t let boys dominate! That is, however, the issue faced by some girls at co Ed schools.

@sellebraytion there certainly has been a huge rise whether you want to believe it or not. There are plenty of articles and studies about it.

I am genuinely wondering if my boy's school is some kind of one off, they are not churning out a load of weirdo boys who can't talk to girls, my two have great mixed social groups and so do their class mates. I went to a girls comprehensive and, similarly, we mixed with boys outside of school without issue.

The reason girls tend to do better in single sex schools is because they are away from boys who tend to dominate mixed spaces and intimidate girls from speaking up in classes. Some seem to be suggesting here that only boys schools produce this type of boy when it is obvious that it happens everywhere.

there certainly has been a huge rise whether you want to believe it or not. There are plenty of articles and studies about it.

@JustHereWithMyPopcorn how can they have measured something that wasn't reported? There is no evidence of a rise, only of a rise in reports. The studies, if they have been done correctly, acknowledge this. They can only study what is reported.

@sellebraytion feel free to look it up for yourself, I'm not here to argue with you about it, my earlier point was about boys attitudes to girls doesn't matter which type of school they go to. Even if you think it's just reporting has increased it really doesn't make the argument any different.

I don't need to look it up because I know that legitimate peer-reviewed studies don't/can't report what you claim they report. You may have misread them, or you may have read inferior studies that aren't properly peer reviewed. It's easily done.

My DS attended an all boys grammar school. He's quite a gentle soul and suffered terribly at the hands of the other boys and the ingrained bullying culture. I wouldn't recommend that environment for anyone unless they are highly competitive, sporty, alpha types. I don't exaggerate when I say that my son's mental health and wellbeing was totally destroyed by his time at this particular single sex school. Although we pulled him out the damage was done and it will be a long road ahead to heal him.

My DDs, on the other hand, benefited greatly from their time at an all girls school. I can't speak highly enough of the targetted curriculum and extra-curricular activities they benefited from and the confidence they developed.

I agree with other posters that boys generally do better in a mixed school whilst girls do better in a single sex environment.

We were in the same position as you OP because all the good state schools, including grammars, near us are single sex. I would have preferred co-ed. However, I went with the best fitting school for each child and it has worked out fine.
My DC did lots of music so lots of the orchestras and orchestra tours were co-ed and we always tried to do hobbies where they meet teens from the other sex. They also have each other because we have 2 girls and 2 boys. Despite the research in general showing that co-ed is better for boys and single sex better for girls we found the exact opposite for our DC. The girls found single sex high achieving grammar a bit toxic (their words) and the boys were and are super happy at the single sex nerdy superselective boys grammar. It is competitive in STEM, Maths, chess and even Rugby but it isn’t misogynistic I do not think. All the schools are thankfully co-ed in the Sixth Form. However, the boys is stronger at STEM and the girls stronger at Languages. One of my boys sings in a choir so I don’t think he would have done that happily for long in a mixed school (whereas in the boys grammar it was a big and accepted thing with lots of trips and privileges).

I think the issue was both sexes were used to single sex and shoving them together for the odd event doesn’t seem to work. Hopefully co Ed where the mixing is the norm the girls silence wouldn’t be so extreme. Dh was going in as a volunteer he’s not a teacher he did what he could but he was struck by how different the mixed session was to his last years girls only event.