"My parents dont let me watch the news": reflections on 11+ interviews I have carried out

[hannaretch]

Over the past few weeks I have been carrying out 11+ interviews with new applicants to our school -independent day school, outside of London, thought of as the most academic school in our town.

I generally talk to the children for 20 minutes about their studies, hobbies etc and ask them to talk about themselves. The aim is to get an idea of who they are and whether they will fit in with the school ethos. We tend to interview almost all applicants as we feel that a good interview will allow us to get a better view of the individual even those with marginal entrance exam results. They get information on the type of questions they are likely to get before the day to allow them to prepare. We also ask them to bring in an item which they then talk about.

One of the standard questions I and others ask is along the lines of do you follow the news? Talk about a current news story/ what do think about Ukraine/ climate change? type thing. Nothing too major but it allows us to get an idea of their awareness of the world. Most are able to answer with basic knowledge and some understanding of the issues and it often leads to good discussions.

I was shocked that two or three of the ones I have interviewed this year stated that they werent allowed to watch the news and had no opinions/ ideas about the issues. Surely watching the news at 6 etc or online or even Newsround is basic preparation for life? (or school interview at least?)

As I say, my DC are fairly academic but not gifted. But here is some more info. I think this is what the super selective are trying to assess at interview, hard to fake (even for tiger families!):

Common Characteristics of Gifted Individuals
Because gifted children are so diverse, not all exhibit all characteristics all of the time. However, there are common characteristics that many gifted individuals share:
Unusual alertness, even in infancy
Rapid learner; puts thoughts together quickly
Excellent memory
Unusually large vocabulary and complex sentence structure for age
Advanced comprehension of word nuances, metaphors and abstract ideas
Enjoys solving problems, especially with numbers and puzzles
Often self-taught reading and writing skills as preschooler
Deep, intense feelings and reactions
Highly sensitive
Thinking is abstract, complex, logical, and insightful
Idealism and sense of justice at early age
Concern with social and political issues and injustices
Longer attention span and intense concentration
Preoccupied with own thoughts—daydreamer
Learn basic skills quickly and with little practice
Asks probing questions
Wide range of interests (or extreme focus in one area)
Highly developed curiosity
Interest in experimenting and doing things differently
Puts idea or things together that are not typical
Keen and/or unusual sense of humor
Desire to organize people/things through games or complex schemas
Vivid imaginations (and imaginary playmates when in preschool)

That's very interesting @Bitteplease , you answered my question before I asked it. So having a very high IQ or all 9/A* does not mean someone is gifted, right?

Asking children about current affairs, what's going on in the world, is the exact way you weed out hot house kids that aren't gifted. As @Bitteplease posted, gifted kids reveal themselves pretty easily. The parents of a gifted child don't need to tutor them to the eyeballs to pass an 11+ for a kick off, a truly gifted child would be bored swotting constantly for 11+ anyway, goes back to the curiosity.

Super selective grammars have such larger number of applicants than expensive public schools, they have to fall back on top 11+ marks to cull the numbers.

Somewhere like Eton or Harrow can rely on interviews and exam performance.

I really don’t think it is. No hot housing here, and a lot of self styled learning - just not current affairs.

Still that list below can be met. Ime of selective school it’s not a great question, and what they did use made more sense.

Having 9 A is probably more likely to be on the gifted scale but not necessarily. 25% of kids at my nephew's school achieve all 9s (A*). Not all are gifted, probably many are but some are simply very, very, very hard working and come from families where academics trumps extra curricular activities and a social life).

You can have an above IQ (if able/highly able) and do very, very well academically if you put in the hours.

High IQ would normally suggested gifted but there are levels - mildly, moderate, high, profound. I would expect a child with an IQ above 135 to display many of the gifted characteristics above.

Unless incredibly pushed/tutored as you can increase IQ scoring with practice (not that much but a bit).

I also expect super selective to pay more attention to English/VR scores as there is so much tiger parenting about now and maths is one area where, with constant repetition, you can score relatively highly (so get a perfect score in the 'usual' maths questions but never solve those final, puzzle hard questions) whereas harder to do in English/VR (but of course if you spend hours doing vocab training you can bypass that as well to an extent).

Yes, spot on.

A child who does nothing but 11+ revision isn't hot housing??

If I was selecting kids for a very selective school or much later in life for university, I would expect them to have an opinion about something in the news, I would pitch it age appropriate, but it would be random - I'd ask a 10 year old, Space X have just tested the most powerful rocket in human history, what do you think about that? They don't need to know all about Space X, who Elon Musk is, what contracts Space X have , what the rocket is called (Starship) but I would expect a bright child to have an opinion.

I don't know why posters on here can't seem to grasp this is a sign of a bright child, its not receiving an answer that tick boxes, its more abstract than that- having a conversation beyond what's tested in entrance exams to look for signs of a spark.

Yes, exactly this. I think maybe parents feel a bit bruised when realising that perhaps their child is not gifted (even though very bright and hardworking/academic). They shouldn't.

I have bright kids but they're not gifted. If you find yourself asking if your child is gifted, they probably aren't as when you see one, you know one. They're the kids that have opinions (tend to like a debate and argue their point) and connect things you yourself would not even see.

Kids that are gifted are generally not only recognised by their own immediate family as such but you will find other people - teachers/coaches/strangers -comment on their ability. These kids seem to know things adults do which means that you can hold an adult conversation with them from a very early age.

I thinking about our experience with a non hot housed dc, ie no prep school and only doing past papers rather than tutoring and the things he liked to learn of his own accord - in his case it was seeking out maths not the news.

Great for him imo but I also know the school didn’t use questions as in the op. They were quite abstract and seemed a good way to find the type of student they are after. It’s a school with a reputation for academics and not just cramming, I think they’ve got it right.

Your question is better btw as you are not assuming knowledge of the news. But ime the questions were even more abstract than that and worked well.

..was thinking

I think they do it because using the example of Space X it could favour a child with knowledge of the event over another - this might be due to family exposure, maybe a parent has given a strong opinion on it and this has stuck with the dc.

So to really get creative and thinking minds they used questions that families would rarely see come up.

Bitteplease I thought that list was quite interesting as it fits one of my children (who at times has driven me to distraction). I was really surprised by the things her teachers in reception noticed when she first started school (strong sense of social justice, making connections and links, curiosity etc) as I sort of thought all kids did it and was more concerned about her reading/writing and was a bit dismissive when they were telling me what she was doing stood out. During lockdown as a 3yo she created a deep imaginary world with rules, friends etc and I thought that was just normal pre-school imaginary play. It’s only since having my second that I realise how differently their minds work and how unusual the creativity of my eldest was from being tiny. My second is bright but in a much more typical way.

@DaddyPhD

So you get to make bald statements with no evidence to back them up - for instance, children of ten (!) need to know about corruption in government - and you are arguing here for the importance of critical thinking?

Do I have that right?

DS was a bit like this. By three he was really good company, as well as just getting stuff quickly, knew his colours numbers etc before 3, times tables in yr 1, could beat us at chess before he was 10. Now top of his year at Oxbridge, I knew he was bright I didn't realise he was expectional.

@mathanxiety

Academic work aims to uncover the truth. Critical thinking in any subject or discipline is the way in which this is done.

That's why things like believing in made up things like God or any religion, or believing two sets of humans with different skin colour means they have different characteristics, its complete mumbo jumbo that critical thinking destroys in seconds

Any intelligent American cannot exhibit critical thinking and think the Trump adminstration wasn't corrupt, just as the current UK gov, is. Yet in response to another poster who argued your world view was Western-centric and colonised ( it is , I agree with @AllOutofEverything ) your response was :

Scratching my head here.

How, exactly?

And how is watching endless scenes of war, famine, and political dysfunction in Africa or Haiti or any other non 'western' theatre achieving any other effect?

This response shows a complete absence of any critical thinking, sophistication, or nuance.

You argue me stating a child of ten should know about corruption in gov, weirdly you say this somehow contradicts the importance of critical thinking ??

Question, what do you understand by the term critical thinking?

One last thing, what's a bald statement?

Oh dear @DaddyPhD . You liken religious belief with racism how facile.

Judging by your username you have or are working on a PhD so must be aware that academia includes theology and religion as intellectual disciplines, fields that are rigorously studied and researched. Faith is obviously a debatable and complex subject but an intelligent and educated person as you portray yourself to be would know that, at the very minimum, religion is an integral part of cultures both historically as well as in contemporary societies. Whether you look at this as an anthropologist, sociologist, theologist, urban planner or computer scientist, God and religion are 'real' in terms of people's lived experiences whether they are religious or not. Obviously this is not the place to start an epistemological debate about what real means but I'm sure you get the gist. Sadly, you are contradicting yourself by using racist language, the term mambo jumbo is insensitive and a reflective awareness of cultures and language would help formulate your views in a less insensitive way.

I am smiling at your comment
This response shows a complete absence of any critical thinking, sophistication, or nuance.
as all of this could be said about you based on your posts.

I find it amusing (in an eye rolling sort of way) that someone who is a self confessed critical thinker makes dozens of references to gifted children. I suppose you mean highly able children, who are of course a very diverse bunch as has been suggested.

The parents of a gifted child don't need to tutor them to the eyeballs to pass an 11+ for a kick off, a truly gifted child would be bored swotting constantly for 11+ anyway, goes back to the curiosity.

Mhm.. that may be true of some highly able children. Others will have the critical thinking ability to realise that the school they want to go to requires them to prepare 'to the eyeballs', they will be on board and work their socks off. A highly able child that doesn't work hard academically in a structured way because they get bored easily will run into issues sooner than later and often these particular children sadly don't fulfil their potential.

I agree with a PP news are sensationalist and produced to capture attention and generate revenue, not to provide unbiased or genuinely relevant information so be wise with how you introduce your dc to news stories.

Anyways, most highly able children I have come across would pick numerous holes in the idea of a ‘corrupt government’ and come up with reasons why that's not really a big problem seeing that lateral thinking, open mindedness and unconventional problem solving are usually their forte.

religion is an integral part of cultures both historically as well as in contemporary societies. Whether you look at this as an anthropologist, sociologist, theologist, urban planner or computer scientist, God and religion are 'real' in terms of people's lived experiences whether they are religious or not

Of course, @PinkInARow being a Jedi as a religion is 'real' in terms of some people's lived experiences, doesn't mean the 'The Force' is real as some believe. I linked belief in a higher being to racism to show how such a belief while it can be studied, be 'real' etc, is all bullshit. OR are you saying we can scientifically study if God is up there?

You got me on Mumbo Jumbo, I actually argued the dangers of colonised and western centric views, and it extends to language, so no argument from me on that one. Well done!

Glad I amused with references to gifted children, sort of went off topic , I was actually talking about gifted, not bright or very able children. My experience on campus is the gifted can get through academically in a very non-structured way.

I agree with a PP news are sensationalist and produced to capture attention and generate revenue, not to provide unbiased or genuinely relevant information so be wise with how you introduce your dc to news stories.

...No shit!! You gave me an amusing smile, in an eye rolling kind of way @PinkInARow on that one, so we're even now.

Anyways, most highly able children I have come across would pick numerous holes in the idea of a ‘corrupt government’ and come up with reasons why that's not really a big problem seeing that lateral thinking, open mindedness and unconventional problem solving are usually their forte.

I'm assuming you count yourself as an highly able person from the tone of your post, what are the holes in the argument that the Trump and Johnson abused their entrusted power, the definition of corruption? Besides it was said in context as a reply to my good friend, @mathanxiety dismissal of the whole continent of Africa as 'corrupt'.

It's not a question of left or right, its just a plain fact we have corruption in the West.

The Jury is out on Sunak and Biden, although the actions around Braverman and Biden's documents are 'fishy'.

Just in case you missed it in the news,

Johnson: Partygate and the prorogation of parliament

Trump: Tying aid to Ukraine for Zelensky into announcing an investigation into Democratic presidential candidate Joe Biden and the incitement to violence on Capitol Hill.

"If you want to get children interested in the wider world, eat foods from different cuisines, talk positively about cultures both contemporary and ancient, travel, get stuck into duolingo and get them involved, buy a globe for the home, watch travel and nature programmes, visit museums, play 'what's the capital city'/ 'name three artists from X country' type games."

Any decent parent does this as well. But if that is all they understand they are getting a western centric colonialised view of countries.

I'm interested in your thought process here, @DaddyPhD - how are my suggestions going to result in a 'western centric colonialised (sic) view of countries'?

I also want to know how you think news of war, famine, natural disasters whose effects are compounded by political corruption, and all the other sensational content deemed newsworthy that comes from parts of the world outside of what we call the west can contribute to the world view of a child of ten.

And how is watching endless scenes of war, famine, and political dysfunction in Africa or Haiti or any other non 'western' theatre achieving any other effect?

"Calling the whole continent of Africa (54 hugely different countries) as endless scenes of war and political dysfunction and ingoring the endless scenes of war and political dysfunction in the West - is a pretty Western centric, colonised view."
@DaddyPhD
I'm probably most interested in the leap from my comment to your interpretation.

The nightly news shows scenes of war, famine, political dysfunction, rape, kidnapping, and much more from parts of the world not considered 'western'.

Would talking to your children about medieval African empires, sampling the cuisine of different African regions, listening to current day music, looking at art and artefacts from places other than Greece or Rome (and perhaps discussing how they came to be locked away in the British Museum) counterbalance the seemingly endless parade of sensational negatives from those parts of the world?

Of course, @PinkInARow being a Jedi as a religion is 'real' in terms of some people's lived experiences, doesn't mean the 'The Force' is real as some believe. I linked belief in a higher being to racism to show how such a belief while it can be studied, be 'real' etc, is all bullshit. OR are you saying we can scientifically study if God is up there?

@DaddyPhD
The opinion you stated on religion/ racism is not evidence of the open mindedness one would hope to encounter in someone advocating the importance of critical thinking and defending the decision of parents to expose their children to the media product that is called 'the news', moreover someone presenting himself as a poster child for the value of exposing children to political debate and a healthy serving of news daily.

Your paragraph is not evidence of one of the basic elements of critical thought either, namely, the ability to not simply make stuff up or put words into other people's mouths.
OR are you saying we can scientifically study if God is up there?
Nope, @PinkInARow neither stated nor implied any such thing.

@DaddyPhD

You argue me stating a child of ten should know about corruption in gov, weirdly you say this somehow contradicts the importance of critical thinking ??

If I could figure out what exactly you are driving at here in this sentence, maybe I could have a stab at answering you. I have a strong suspicion that you have misread something I posted.

Question, what do you understand by the term critical thinking?

There are a lot of definitions. The area is one characterised by ongoing debate, and definitions are evolving. At its most basic level, it's reflective thinking (Dewey's definition).
I also like Francis Bacon's, from 1605:
"For myself, I found that I was fitted for nothing so well as for the study of Truth; as having a mind nimble and versatile enough to catch the resemblances of things and at the same time steady enough to fix and distinguish their subtler differences; as being gifted by nature with desire to seek, patience to doubt, fondness to meditate, slowness to assert, readiness to consider, carefulness to dispose and set in order; and as being a man that neither affects what is new nor admires what is old, and that hates every kind of imposture."

One last thing, what's a bald statement?
A bald statement or assertion is one not backed up by evidence. It's an opinion, not an argument.

Statements concerning the necessity for children to watch the nightly news fall into this category when all they have to recommend them is the fact that you did this as a child. Statements asserting or implying that ten year old children are capable of deriving meaningful training in critical thinking from news-watching are similarly not backed up by evidence.

Just adding this for anyone still following the thread who is interested in helping their kids learn to think critically and independently:

click through for a higher quality printable version:

get.futurefocusedlearning.net/critical-thinking-cheatsheet

My mother also grew up on a farm and saw the type of thing you describe. She could not bear the screams of pigs being slaughtered, found it extremely sad and disturbing. She never ate bacon, ham or pork during her long life. She was a very well-balanced, competent, cheerful oerson
in all other regards.
People are different. Some can find events they witness as chidren traumatising and the memories can remain with them.
Just so you know.

Because war and famine and political corruption in the developing world did not develop in isolation, its inextricably linked to western colonialism for hundreds of years.

That translates you ensure your children don't believe in a cartoon like vision of the world that the West is civilised and outside of the West are savages.

Nothing to do with forcing your children to watch war or famine, certainly not watching natural disaters.

I think you're having a straw man argument here.

I've only advocated encouraging children who want to find out about the world, not 'forcing' them to watch the news.

Poltical debate and seeking out the news is something that many bright children do, its something that many gifted children do and my stance is encourage this in your children.

You can't force it.

And sorry, if someone tells me they believe in God or The Force, they are delusional. A delusion, that Dawkins defines as a persistent false belief held in the face of strong contradictory evidence.

I wouldn't say that to their face, I'd smile and say good for you.